fat skis and narrow lines

[liquidfeet]

I've always heard that it's difficult to get fat skis to roll up on edge. Is this really true?

Do they mean for people who usually have difficulty getting any ski up on edge when "they" say this? OR does it count for everyone?

I'm talking about skis with a wide waist. If I were skiing on Karmas, for instance, and I wanted to ski a narrow line down the side of the trail after lunch where there is still some snow left, using fast quick turns, almost wedelning, could I or others do it with fat skis? Or are narrow waistsunderfoot a must for such things? I've just learned to do this, and love my new ability. But I'm wondering about fatter-under-the-boot skis as I hunt for a new ski and await the mfgr's demo days that didn't happen early season to try them out.

 

[Jilly]

I wouldn't say that its difficult to get to edge, it takes that micro-second longer to get there. When I demo'd the Siam 10 verus the Rush 10 that's the first thing I noticed. I would release the edge, flattened and then engage the new edge, but wait where is it, oh, there it is. It's not that long and once you get used to it, you won't really notice it.

 

[volklgirl]

Fat skis

Based on my experiences on my Karmas and my demo runs on the K2 Outlaw and Nordica Afterburner, I'd have to say "it depends".

All 3 of these 80+ waisted skis required some serious angles and commitment to the edge to make them carve cleanly. However, I've found that the Karma is also soft enough to easily make skidded turns in the narrowest of corridors and they slither silkily through crud bumps. In contrast, I couldn't buy a short turn (skidded or otherwise) on the Afterburner, and the Outlaw is a high speed, big turn tank (it is, however, the easiest of the 3 to "surf" through the pow and crud - the other 2 prefer to carve). While I've been playing on the Karma on our little bump making all kinds of turns in all kinds of conditions and have found it to be incredibly versatile and user-friendly, it really is happiest carving through the crud and mashed 'taters at mach speeds in big turns.

For me, rather than say that they're difficult to get on edge, I'd say it just takes more commitment and some patience....there's almost a hesitation during the transition as you roll the fatties from one edge to the other. To get an idea....take your flat hand and roll it from the thumb side to the pinkie side - see how it just rolls over? Now, to simulate the fatties, put both hands together thumb-to-thumb and roll them over from one pinkie side to the other - see how there's a delay as it goes from edge to flat to edge?

 

[Jilly]

A better explaination then mine. Exactly what I was talking about.

 

[volklgirl]

Jilly,

You're so funny! Your succinct response was already posted while I fiddle-farted around with my missive. I laughed when it finally posted and saw your answer was already there. :D :D

 

[Jilly]

At least, we're on the same wavelength. It just seems to take longer to get to that new edge.

 

[liquidfeet]

OK, you two experts (and others too), here's another question that's off topic, but I'm going with it since I've got your attention. Your descriptions of flippping a wide waist make the point real well, and so I'm rnow excited to try some of those skis.

However, in my van right now I have a pair of skis a friend is trying to sell me real cheap that I will try today. She bought them, skied them twice, and hated them. Two experts in my ski club looked at the skis, bent them, and told me no way, you'll never be able to bend those skis. So I'm trying them anyway today. They are Atomic Beta Carves, screaming red, 160 in length. Turn radius is 16. Both guys bent them, said one needs to weigh 200+ pounds (I'm 130), or be going REALLY FAST all the time, to bend these skis, and that I just won't like them. They have both seen me ski, and they both really know what they are doing. One is a real gear hound.

I'll report once I've skied them. However, any guesses as to whether their logic is correct?

 

[Jilly]

Liquidfeet: is there are number that goes with it? Beta is the construction of the ski, it may have a number near the binding like B4? The latest are Beta 5 construction so are labelled B5 near the binding. Carves were a line of skis and I think they had numbers with them like 9.18 or 9.12 for the models. I'm thinking that they might be at least 4 years old (?)

 

[Pequenita]

Upfront, I'm going to just admit that it's very likely that I have no idea what I'm talking about, but be kind - I've had an annoying end of the work day. Bleh. :(

In response to the original question in the thread, isn't an additional issue that would make narrow lines less likely the overall sidecut? I guess liquidfeet's question is more about getting up onto the edge, but here's what I'm thinking:

To me, a powder ski is shaped more like an old straight ski than a current all-mountain. Yeah, a fat waist makes it take longer to get onto the edge, but wouldn't the sidecut on the powder/fat ski give it a larger turn radius, too, decreasing the likelihood of narrow lines?

 

[volklgirl]

To me, a powder ski is shaped more like an old straight ski than a current all-mountain. Yeah, a fat waist makes it take longer to get onto the edge, but wouldn't the sidecut on the powder/fat ski give it a larger turn radius, too, decreasing the likelihood of narrow lines?

Yes, if you're only relying on the side cut of the ski and making purely and completely carved turns. However, the stiffness and flex pattern of the ski also helps to determine how tight an arc a ski will make, and you'll rarely make totally carved turns on a narrow line, regardless. At that point, then, it's more dependent upon the skis' ability to be skidded or "scarved" which is more a product of stffness and flex than side cut.

Also, the new generation of "all mountain" or "twin tip" fatties often have drastic sidecuts and miniscule turn radii compared to their waist size (Volkl AC4, Nordica Top Fuel/Afterburner, etc). Many of these have 80+ waists paired with 16-20m turn radii making them great groomer and crud skis, but only OK power skis.

 

[volklgirl]

Atomics

Liquidfeet;

I think we're both waiting for an actual model number on your skis, but in my experiences with the Beta Carves in general, I'm thinking your buddies will be right. I've found that Atomics tend to require tons of rider input and have very unforgiving tails. I found it very difficult to carve clean turns on them.

Hey! Congrats on your double Golds tonight!!!! You just keepp getting faster and faster!
(It looks like 1 more result like tonight's will bump you into the Gold division!)

 

[liquidfeet]

Liquidfeet;
Hey! Congrats on your double Golds tonight!!!! You just keepp getting faster and faster!
(It looks like 1 more result like tonight's will bump you into the Gold division!)

Thank you thank you. Now if I can just figure out how to carve cleanly, then I can go faster, faster, faster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I suppose it's balance issues and fine tuning now. Plus a sharp edge. I am working on those things. Just got HH's new book -- he is much better this time around (compared to the last book) staying on topic and explaining things step by step. I've noted a number of drills and am looking forward to trying them. Drills are cool! I learn so many unexpected things that have to do with feel, sensitivity, and control from drills. It's surprising how difficult some drills are, and how mastering them helps in all sorts of things.
Also I stay flexible and open to my own inspirations on how to get the skis slicing, since no book nor instructor knows what it feels like to be me skiing down a course.
I don't know how Nastar does its thing, but if I keep getting gold +s, I'm sure their numbers on me will go up. But I want platinums. Platinums. Platinums. So there.

 

[liquidfeet]

I think we're both waiting for an actual model number on your skis,

Now the skis are in the house. But the "model number" is elusive. Why do they make this so difficult? Car manufacturers know how to do model names. Not so ski mfrs.

On the skis it says:
Beta Ride
Power Chanels Titanium
R 11 20 (? I think it's an R)
134

on the bindings it says: Super Cross

the measurements are:
106
70
97
16 (the turn radius, I suspect)
160 in length

Volklgirl, if you can't bend Atomics, really, truly, I can't get close to bending them. But I didn't get a chance to try them out yesterday. Probably will get to it on Saturday.

 

[Jilly]

First word "titanium" STIFF buggers right? R - ride series - all mountain skis. Not what you're looking for Liquidfeet! Leave those with your friend! Also at least 4 years old. Atomic didn't really replace these skis. They sort of evolve into the supercross series.

 

[volklgirl]

The 11.20 would be the top model in the Ride line. Probably stiff, stiff, stiff. But give 'em a try and let us know what you think!

Oh, and if I did my math correctly, any handicap better than a 48.33 should move you up to the Gold bracket. Congrats!!!

 

[liquidfeet]

if I did my math correctly, any handicap better than a 48.33 should move you up to the Gold bracket. Congrats!!!

OK, wow, now I have to go to the Nastar site and see what this is all about.

I'll report back Sun/Mon about how I hated/loved/skidded/fell on the stiff Atomics.

Thanks all for the great advice.

 

[volklgirl]

If you don't understand the Nastar ranking system based on their description, PM me and I'll try to make it easy (beware...math involved!!)