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Epic Ski Pass Refunds

teppaz

Angel Diva
"Rob" may not even be a real person. He could be made up just to get the story going. It's possible.
A side note.

As a regular NY Times contributor (though not in the business section, which had this story) I'll say it's very unlikely Rob was made up to get the story going. The Times gets a huge amount of mail, including this type of questions. Many people write hoping the paper's institutional clout will help expose problems and/or get some kind of resolution in conflicts such as this one with Vail Resorts. The letter itself did not raise any alarm bells to me.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
A side note.

As a regular NY Times contributor (though not in the business section, which had this story) I'll say it's very unlikely Rob was made up to get the story going. The Times gets a huge amount of mail, including this type of questions. Many people write hoping the paper's institutional clout will help expose problems and/or get some kind of resolution in conflicts such as this one with Vail Resorts. The letter itself did not raise any alarm bells to me.

Thanks for clarifying that, @teppaz. Good to know.
 

ling

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I, too, think it would be reasonable for Vail to offer some sorts of refunds, or credits toward next season...something. But I also understand that they probably can't do that without hemorrhaging so much money that they'd have to start cutting some of their losses
Simple. If they don’t offer a significant credit for next season, a good percentage of this year’s pass holder will not renew.

The operation of several of the Vail mountains in the northeast are pretty terrible. AND it had nothing to do with Covid, like not making snow or not running lifts when nearby non-Vail mountains are having more runs and lifts open. People will move over to those nearby mountains.

But vail can offer large credit to pass holders to keep them. That of course depends whether Vail wants to keep owning the mountains at all.

So if you don’t see them offering a large credit to pass holders, there’s reasons to be even more worried...
 

Christy

Angel Diva
I have no idea how well capitalized they are. Last year they lost a very large chunk of the season, and this year's limitations are making a major dent in sales. (Think of the cost of closing the bars alone! :eek: )

Resorts are in the same terrible position as so many businesses in the US: no state or federal financial help to stay afloat through the pandemic, so they have to try to open; but the process of opening is impossibly hamstrung by the restrictions and modifications necessary to manage the pandemic. Add to that serious staff shortages and the thousands of stir-crazy customers who suddenly have lots of flexible time to ski throughout the week and it's a nightmare I wouldn't want to manage. Oh, and then there's the people who demonize them for opening at all and those who scald them on social media for every logistical shortcoming. Whew.

I've been wondering about the economics of offering these passes even without Covid. They are just so cheap, compared to what a resort season pass at Epic/Ikon areas typically is/was. And people seem to really use them, which is a great deal for the person, but is it for the resort? Is this a sustainable model? I bet we've discussed this here before...
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I've been wondering about the economics of offering these passes even without Covid. They are just so cheap, compared to what a resort season pass at Epic/Ikon areas typically is/was. And people seem to really use them, which is a great deal for the person, but is it for the resort? Is this a sustainable model? I bet we've discussed this here before...
Been reading Chris Diamond's books about the ski industry. Very good background for any one interested in the past 20-30 years of the American ski industry, with a little carry over in Canada because of Intrawest (Tremblant, Whistler-Blackcomb).

Good to keep in mind that Epic and Vail Resorts have a different business model than Ikon and Alterra when it comes to operations. The goal is the same . . . get as much money up front as possible. Geographic spread helps to broaden the market and reduce the risk of a terrible season due to lack of snow.

VR is public and has a corporate approach to operations. Epic is unlimited at VR destination resorts and only includes a few partners (Telluride, Sun Valley, Snowbasin) for limited days. Alterra is privately held, has more variation in mountain operations. Ikon is unlimited for most Alterra locations. Ikon has a many well-known independent resorts that are also on the MCP as Partner locations for a limited number of days.

Boyne Resorts and Powdr are the other multi-resort companies with locations in multiple regions. They are Partners on Ikon, but also have their own season passes.
 

Abbi

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Here's a story similar to the NY Times article from a Massachusetts TV station:

Skiers Express Frustrations with Vail Resorts over Refusing Refunds, Credits

The wording, “forcing people to lie“ aggravates me! If people violate the rules of any given state they are choosing to lie, not being forced to lie. I am in no way claiming I don’t feel for these people and agree that something should be offered back to them. I hope if it’s an end of season adjustment that Vail does step up. While we ski divas are affected by this, it really still is a first world issue!
 

badger

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I've been wondering about the economics of offering these passes even without Covid. They are just so cheap, compared to what a resort season pass at Epic/Ikon areas typically is/was. And people seem to really use them, which is a great deal for the person, but is it for the resort? Is this a sustainable model? I bet we've discussed this here before...
I know that those employees of these resorts hate the inconvenience of convenience of those passes.
They are having to deal with overcrowding in every circumstance that involves lines. I wish those passes would just go away.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Before the season got going I had been considering an Epic pass to have a few extra options of skiing in NH in case things went south with my regular pass at Sunday River. However, the rollover/refunds policy for my New England Pass (that has a date to defer fully by if you haven't used it and also a 150 day season length guarantee where you'd get some credit to next season if it isn't hit) and Ikon (which you can essentially hold onto all season without skiing and then choose to defer fully) were VASTLY superior to the Epic option that didn't seem to have a great opt out strategy for my comfort level. This was all calculated risk for everyone as others have stated, so I don't really see that Vail should be on the hook to take on all of the risk now as they never came out as doing so to begin with. Might be a nice gesture for them to do something, but who knows what makes sense with their overall operating expenses..

I also agree that their resorts sure seem to be lacking the motivation/oomph/something in New England versus other resorts close by with far superior snowmaking pushes and terrain openings at this point in what's been a really tough season from a weather standpoint so far. Hopefully that won't be the way they operate in the future post Covid, but it sure makes me think I'll be sticking to the Ikon bandwagon when supplementing my regular New England pass until I see how that goes. It seems so weird to see what's happening with Wildcat in particular this season, I've heard it's been horrible there with a big lack of effort to get things going and that's not how they usually seemed to operate pre-Vail..
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I've heard it's been horrible there with a big lack of effort to get things going and that's not how they usually seemed to operate pre-Vail..
The same type of complaining about VR snowmaking effort has been happening for the former Snowtime resorts in PA. Although that started after the sale to Peak Resorts. So it's a little hard to tell which factor is more important, the weather or snowmaking operational decisions and staffing.
 

KWlovessnow

Angel Diva
The same type of complaining about VR snowmaking effort has been happening for the former Snowtime resorts in PA. Although that started after the sale to Peak Resorts. So it's a little hard to tell which factor is more important, the weather or snowmaking operational decisions and staffing.
There are 4 small hills in the Detroit Metro area, all of which generally need to make their snow to open. 3 are independently owned and 1 is owned and operated by Vail and it is always the last to open every winter.
 

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