Epic Ski Pass Refunds

[teppaz]

"Rob" may not even be a real person. He could be made up just to get the story going. It's possible.

A side note.

As a regular NY Times contributor (though not in the business section, which had this story) I'll say it's very unlikely Rob was made up to get the story going. The Times gets a huge amount of mail, including this type of questions. Many people write hoping the paper's institutional clout will help expose problems and/or get some kind of resolution in conflicts such as this one with Vail Resorts. The letter itself did not raise any alarm bells to me.

 

[ski diva]

A side note.

As a regular NY Times contributor (though not in the business section, which had this story) I'll say it's very unlikely Rob was made up to get the story going. The Times gets a huge amount of mail, including this type of questions. Many people write hoping the paper's institutional clout will help expose problems and/or get some kind of resolution in conflicts such as this one with Vail Resorts. The letter itself did not raise any alarm bells to me.

Thanks for clarifying that, @teppaz. Good to know.

 

[ling]

I, too, think it would be reasonable for Vail to offer some sorts of refunds, or credits toward next season...something. But I also understand that they probably can't do that without hemorrhaging so much money that they'd have to start cutting some of their losses

Simple. If they don’t offer a significant credit for next season, a good percentage of this year’s pass holder will not renew.

The operation of several of the Vail mountains in the northeast are pretty terrible. AND it had nothing to do with Covid, like not making snow or not running lifts when nearby non-Vail mountains are having more runs and lifts open. People will move over to those nearby mountains.

But vail can offer large credit to pass holders to keep them. That of course depends whether Vail wants to keep owning the mountains at all.

So if you don’t see them offering a large credit to pass holders, there’s reasons to be even more worried...

 

[Christy]

I have no idea how well capitalized they are. Last year they lost a very large chunk of the season, and this year's limitations are making a major dent in sales. (Think of the cost of closing the bars alone! )

Resorts are in the same terrible position as so many businesses in the US: no state or federal financial help to stay afloat through the pandemic, so they have to try to open; but the process of opening is impossibly hamstrung by the restrictions and modifications necessary to manage the pandemic. Add to that serious staff shortages and the thousands of stir-crazy customers who suddenly have lots of flexible time to ski throughout the week and it's a nightmare I wouldn't want to manage. Oh, and then there's the people who demonize them for opening at all and those who scald them on social media for every logistical shortcoming. Whew.

I've been wondering about the economics of offering these passes even without Covid. They are just so cheap, compared to what a resort season pass at Epic/Ikon areas typically is/was. And people seem to really use them, which is a great deal for the person, but is it for the resort? Is this a sustainable model? I bet we've discussed this here before...

 

[marzNC]

I've been wondering about the economics of offering these passes even without Covid. They are just so cheap, compared to what a resort season pass at Epic/Ikon areas typically is/was. And people seem to really use them, which is a great deal for the person, but is it for the resort? Is this a sustainable model? I bet we've discussed this here before...

Been reading Chris Diamond's books about the ski industry. Very good background for any one interested in the past 20-30 years of the American ski industry, with a little carry over in Canada because of Intrawest (Tremblant, Whistler-Blackcomb).

Good to keep in mind that Epic and Vail Resorts have a different business model than Ikon and Alterra when it comes to operations. The goal is the same . . . get as much money up front as possible. Geographic spread helps to broaden the market and reduce the risk of a terrible season due to lack of snow.

VR is public and has a corporate approach to operations. Epic is unlimited at VR destination resorts and only includes a few partners (Telluride, Sun Valley, Snowbasin) for limited days. Alterra is privately held, has more variation in mountain operations. Ikon is unlimited for most Alterra locations. Ikon has a many well-known independent resorts that are also on the MCP as Partner locations for a limited number of days.

Boyne Resorts and Powdr are the other multi-resort companies with locations in multiple regions. They are Partners on Ikon, but also have their own season passes.

 

[ski diva]

Here's a story similar to the NY Times article from a Massachusetts TV station:

Skiers Express Frustrations with Vail Resorts over Refusing Refunds, Credits

 

[Abbi]

Here's a story similar to the NY Times article from a Massachusetts TV station:

Skiers Express Frustrations with Vail Resorts over Refusing Refunds, Credits

The wording, “forcing people to lie“ aggravates me! If people violate the rules of any given state they are choosing to lie, not being forced to lie. I am in no way claiming I don’t feel for these people and agree that something should be offered back to them. I hope if it’s an end of season adjustment that Vail does step up. While we ski divas are affected by this, it really still is a first world issue!

 

[badger]

I've been wondering about the economics of offering these passes even without Covid. They are just so cheap, compared to what a resort season pass at Epic/Ikon areas typically is/was. And people seem to really use them, which is a great deal for the person, but is it for the resort? Is this a sustainable model? I bet we've discussed this here before...

I know that those employees of these resorts hate the inconvenience of convenience of those passes.
They are having to deal with overcrowding in every circumstance that involves lines. I wish those passes would just go away.

 

[MissySki]

Before the season got going I had been considering an Epic pass to have a few extra options of skiing in NH in case things went south with my regular pass at Sunday River. However, the rollover/refunds policy for my New England Pass (that has a date to defer fully by if you haven't used it and also a 150 day season length guarantee where you'd get some credit to next season if it isn't hit) and Ikon (which you can essentially hold onto all season without skiing and then choose to defer fully) were VASTLY superior to the Epic option that didn't seem to have a great opt out strategy for my comfort level. This was all calculated risk for everyone as others have stated, so I don't really see that Vail should be on the hook to take on all of the risk now as they never came out as doing so to begin with. Might be a nice gesture for them to do something, but who knows what makes sense with their overall operating expenses..

I also agree that their resorts sure seem to be lacking the motivation/oomph/something in New England versus other resorts close by with far superior snowmaking pushes and terrain openings at this point in what's been a really tough season from a weather standpoint so far. Hopefully that won't be the way they operate in the future post Covid, but it sure makes me think I'll be sticking to the Ikon bandwagon when supplementing my regular New England pass until I see how that goes. It seems so weird to see what's happening with Wildcat in particular this season, I've heard it's been horrible there with a big lack of effort to get things going and that's not how they usually seemed to operate pre-Vail..

 

[marzNC]

I've heard it's been horrible there with a big lack of effort to get things going and that's not how they usually seemed to operate pre-Vail..

The same type of complaining about VR snowmaking effort has been happening for the former Snowtime resorts in PA. Although that started after the sale to Peak Resorts. So it's a little hard to tell which factor is more important, the weather or snowmaking operational decisions and staffing.

 

[KWlovessnow]

The same type of complaining about VR snowmaking effort has been happening for the former Snowtime resorts in PA. Although that started after the sale to Peak Resorts. So it's a little hard to tell which factor is more important, the weather or snowmaking operational decisions and staffing.

There are 4 small hills in the Detroit Metro area, all of which generally need to make their snow to open. 3 are independently owned and 1 is owned and operated by Vail and it is always the last to open every winter.

 

[Christy]

So there's a 50 mile stretch of the Stevens Pass Hwy closed due to flooding and landslides. The governor says it will be closed for months. The extent of the damage is not even known yet. Stevens is the only Epic resort in WA yet VR has stated they will not be giving Epic Pass refunds because this counts as a "transportation issue" or "road or traffic challenge" not a natural disaster.

If they end up revisiting their policy, you also need to have remembered to mark Stevens as your primary resort to be eligible for any refund--default is "all resorts."

**

With Highway 2 closed, what will become of ski season at Stevens Pass?

The ski area says it’s not refunding passholders because it will open as soon as there’s enough snow. But Highway 2’s closure will make it tricky to get there.

www.seattletimes.com

“Our passes are not refundable because they are valid all season long, and we plan to open for skiing and riding as soon as snow conditions permit,” said Galbraith. “Our Epic Coverage refund policy does not extend to road or traffic challenges. Of course, we will continue to assess the entire situation as it evolves.”

If the passholder’s designated “primary resort” closes for a covered reason for at least seven days during the “core season” from December 7 to April 17, then eligible passholders can receive a full or partial refund depending on how many days the passholder used. Natural disasters that close a resort, including floods, are covered. However, “transportation issues,” including road closures, are not covered.

**

This makes me wonder how, exactly, a flood would justify a refund. The flood would have to affect, what, the resort lift system? All lifts? Just some? What kind of flood would we ever have on a mountains?

 

[geargrrl]

I read that.....I'm sure the weaselly lawyers will find workarounds to not claim the roads as natural disasters.

 

[SnowHot]

@Christy I'll be candid and say, I've been burned by Epic relating to lift tickets or passes more than once.

I had a media rate pass when Covid shut down the world which was 450.00/ which was supposed to be a full Epic Pass. I tried to use it at Snowbasin that year and found out that "partnered" resorts were not included on the media pass. When Covid shut everything down, they had a refund toward the next year pass if your Epic pass went unused, so I applied for it and was rejected because it was a special rate full pass. So, Phil and I paid $900.00 total for our two passes and didn't use them.

This year we were setting up to go to Vail Media week where Ski, Outside, Freeskier, etc meet with manufacturers for an early introduction ot 2027 gear. Vail usually provides lift tickets for media for this event. When we reached out they said they were not offering tickets this year. We ended up buying a 4 day Epic Pass just before the Nov 16th deadline to the tune of $936.00(2X4days) November 18th we received an email from them saying that they decided to cover the free tickets for the 4 days of working media.
When asked if we could get a refund on our 4 Day Epic Passes, they said, sorry, no refunds.


I find Epic to be inflexible and difficult.
That being said, I'm stuck with a 4 day Epic Pass so I'll probably be hitting up Northstar at some point this season.

 

[ski diva]

@Christy I'll be candid and say, I've been burned by Epic relating to lift tickets or passes more than once.

I had a media rate pass when Covid shut down the world which was 450.00/ which was supposed to be a full Epic Pass. I tried to use it at Snowbasin that year and found out that "partnered" resorts were not included on the media pass. When Covid shut everything down, they had a refund toward the next year pass if your Epic pass went unused, so I applied for it and was rejected because it was a special rate full pass. So, Phil and I paid $900.00 total for our two passes and didn't use them.

This year we were setting up to go to Vail Media week where Ski, Outside, Freeskier, etc meet with manufacturers for an early introduction ot 2027 gear. Vail usually provides lift tickets for media for this event. When we reached out they said they were not offering tickets this year. We ended up bing a 4 day Epic Pass just before the Nov 16th deadline to the tune of $936.00(2X4days) November 18th we received an email from them saying that they decided to cover the free tickets for the 4 days of working media.
When asked if we could get a refund on our 4 Day Epic Passes, they said, sorry, no refunds.


I find Epic to be inflexible and difficult.
That being said, I'm stuck with a 4 day Epic Pass so I'll probably be hitting up Northstar at some point this season.

Omigod, that's awful.

 

[santacruz skier]

@Christy I'll be candid and say, I've been burned by Epic relating to lift tickets or passes more than once.

I had a media rate pass when Covid shut down the world which was 450.00/ which was supposed to be a full Epic Pass. I tried to use it at Snowbasin that year and found out that "partnered" resorts were not included on the media pass. When Covid shut everything down, they had a refund toward the next year pass if your Epic pass went unused, so I applied for it and was rejected because it was a special rate full pass. So, Phil and I paid $900.00 total for our two passes and didn't use them.

This year we were setting up to go to Vail Media week where Ski, Outside, Freeskier, etc meet with manufacturers for an early introduction ot 2027 gear. Vail usually provides lift tickets for media for this event. When we reached out they said they were not offering tickets this year. We ended up buying a 4 day Epic Pass just before the Nov 16th deadline to the tune of $936.00(2X4days) November 18th we received an email from them saying that they decided to cover the free tickets for the 4 days of working media.
When asked if we could get a refund on our 4 Day Epic Passes, they said, sorry, no refunds.


I find Epic to be inflexible and difficult.
That being said, I'm stuck with a 4 day Epic Pass so I'll probably be hitting up Northstar at some point this season.

That’s terrible customer service …. But let me know or I’ll let you know when I’m there. Hey, why not come to Heavenly? I’ll be there the first week of February…

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

That’s terrible customer service …. But let me know or I’ll let you know when I’m there. Hey, why not come to Heavenly? I’ll be there the first week of February…

@SnowHot, that really sucks! @SnowHot and
@santacruz skier, I’m up for skiing the Tahoe VR the week after New Year and in March and April!

 

[santacruz skier]

@SnowHot, that really sucks! @SnowHot and
@santacruz skier, I’m up for skiing the Tahoe VR the week after New Year and in March and April!

Are you around the week of January 11? I'll be at friend's in Tahoe City so could be skiing both Alpine and Northstar...

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

Are you around the week of January 11? I'll be at friend's in Tahoe City so could be skiing both Alpine and Northstar...

Hit me up, I leave for Hokkaido on 1/15, can ski the first 3 weekdays.

 

[SnowHot]

That’s terrible customer service …. But let me know or I’ll let you know when I’m there. Hey, why not come to Heavenly? I’ll be there the first week of February…

I'll be in Utah the first week of February.
In fact we'll be gone for a little over two weeks, the last week of Jan and first week of February.