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End of turn "snap" w/ tails?

SkiMonster

Certified Ski Diva
My husband was telling me, after watching me get down an icy steep section a week or so ago, that he thinks the last thng i need to learn to bump myself up a notch in ability is to get some "snap" with the tails in the end of my turns on terrain like that.

I have no idea what he's talking about because to me it sounds like he's saying to shove my tails out, and that seems like bad advice; I've asked him to re-explain, but I still am not getting what he means I should do. Sometimes, I just need someone else to say it in a different way than he is I think.

I feel a little guilty; but i also wonder if it's something that applies more to old style skis; he only JUST gave up his old atomic asymetricals last year; and i think sometimes i don't get what he's saying because it would make sense with longer skis than I'm working with or something. I didn't want to insult him by saying so, though, becuase he's got about 25 years of experience to my 2.5.

so; is there something you do at the end of a turn, perhaps to control speed or something, that feels a bit like a snap? I tried to figure it out; but I just don't get what he means; unless it's just my tendancy to drag my tails when I'm tired?
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Getting 'pop' out of the tails of your skis can happen on both the old and the new equipment.

On the old skis, you created a platform at the end of the turn then pressured the middle to back end of the ski to decamber it (bend it backwards). This caused the ski to act like a bow and snap back to its normal shape, throwing you forcefully into the next turn.

On the new skis, there's no platform....just using lots of power from the middle to the end of the turn will cause the skis to decamber then release into the next turn, creating 'pop'. The best way to experience this the first time is to find a very, very shallow slope with tons of room. Make yourself really, really small - like you're skiing under the roof of a dog house. If you can maintain this very low position through several carved turns, it should "just happen", and you'll definitely know when it does. Your skis will just fling you into the next turn, usually off the snow between the turns. :eek: Any skidding during this exercise will release the decambering of the skis before the end of the turn.

Some brands of skis have more 'snap' than others....Atomic, Volkl, and Head are all race-based and should have tons of pop. On the other hand, K2, Rossi, and Volant tend to be too damp to really zing between turns.
 

SkiMonster

Certified Ski Diva
Thanks Volklgrl.

hmm; is that what people mean by rebound? If so; then it might make more sense to me what he was talking about; since I was holding my turn too long and sort of bouncing before i got to the next one...
I think that might be what he means, and maybe he's describing it as "snap" because that's how he learned to do it. I'll ask him if that's what he means, and hopefully I can get in one last day out to give your exercise a try.

I'm interpreting that this is sort of different from when you're just cruising along edge to edge, and it's sort of like your legs almost swing back & forth on their own?

This should be more forceful than just glide-y?

I've been trying to tell if I'm bending the skis or not when I'm skiing, maybe that's what he meant; sounds like it from your description. Would i necessarily be able to discern by feel whether i'm actually regularly bending them or not? (ie, does not being sure mean i'm probably not?)
 

CTskigrrl

Certified Ski Diva
I think that what volkl girl is describing is what used to be called a "jet turn"-where you hold the ski on edge as long as possible in the turn and then quickly release it. If you do it right, your skis will shoot you out of the turn and into the next one. It's a technique used frequently in racing and I'm not sure that it's exactly what your husband is describing. If you used this technique on icy steeps you would find yourself going mach 10 and catching air between your turns. It sounds slightly terrifying to me. However, these type of turns are a blast to do on wide intermediate cruisers and are actually very useful in the bumps (or World Cup slalom).

Perhaps your husband is describing how to complete your turns on steep terrain. This is an excellent way to control your speed while maintaining edge grip - important in steep, icy slopes. To do this, hold your edge longer in the turn, until your tips are almost pointed uphill, then roll onto your downhill (which will become your new uphill) edge and turn while maintaining forward pressure. Committment to the downhill edge and forward pressure are essential. You will feel that you are about to fall over, but you won't (just make sure your edges are sharp). Your tracks will look like a seried of C-shaped as opposed to S-shaped turns.

As with anything, practice on more gentle terrain first. Good luck!
 

RachelV

Administrator
Staff member
We took a lesson last week and the instructor touched on this, actually. I'd describe it less as "popping" or "snapping" and more as just getting up on edge more right before you complete your turn.

The timing varies based on how steep a slope you're on, but the basic idea is just that right before you complete your turn -- just before you're about to release your edges -- get up on edge even more than you were through most of the turn. This does one of two things:
1) If you're on a really steep trail, you'd do this with your skis pretty much across the hill, so it helps you bleed off a little bit of speed.
2) If you're on a more gentle slope, you'd do this with your tips pointing more down the mountain, in which case it kind of shoots you into your next turn and helps you keep your speed up.

I think I'm saying pretty much the same thing as CTskigrrl in the last post, but there ya go. :smile:
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
SkiMonster said:
hmm; is that what people mean by rebound? If so; then it might make more sense to me what he was talking about; since I was holding my turn too long and sort of bouncing before i got to the next one...
I think that might be what he means, and maybe he's describing it as "snap" because that's how he learned to do it.
Most likely, Yes. Most people hold their turn to long across the hill then skid the tails to gain speed control, thereby losing the rebound inherent in the ski. Instead, they need to actually finish the turn up the hill then release the rebound into the next turn.

I'm interpreting that this is sort of different from when you're just cruising along edge to edge, and it's sort of like your legs almost swing back & forth on their own?

This should be more forceful than just glide-y?
Exactly. It's the same motion but with "umph".

I've been trying to tell if I'm bending the skis or not when I'm skiing, maybe that's what he meant; sounds like it from your description. Would i necessarily be able to discern by feel whether i'm actually regularly bending them or not? (ie, does not being sure mean i'm probably not?)
If you're doing it, you'll definitely know. It'll probably scare the cr*p out of you the first time.

No, I wasn't talking about jet turns. Rather, just harnessing the energy that builds up in the ski and using it while still maintaining speed control using turn shape (a complete turn including the uphill portion), rather than using a skid for speed control.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
I tried to response to this earlier and my computer at work didn't want to work with me. Volklgirl has the right idea. It's not a Jet turn. The "snap" "pop" is a response to the pressure built up in the ski. If you are not getting it then any one of the following could be the problem.
1. not enough edge - or skidding
2. not enough steering - not completing your turn (My problem)
3. not enough speed.
A friend of mine called it "loading up the ski". She's right in the feeling.
And as volklgirl says - the first time its right, its scare the hell out of you, but WOW was that neat!!
Jet turns are "old school" bump turns. You get speed off the bump and fly - turn in the air and land. Fun for about 3 turns. Hard on the knees!
 

CTskigrrl

Certified Ski Diva
Ok, sounds like we actually are talking about the same thing, just with different vocabulary. Not that it matters, but I was taught that a jet turn was simply quickly releasing the pressure on a flexed - or decambered(is that a word?) ski. On old straight skis, this meant getting back on the tails, obviously on moderns skis, that is not necessary. Just flex and go. Cheers!
 

SkiMonster

Certified Ski Diva
so; does that mean that i should end every turn heading uphill? It seems backwards to me, but i feel like that's becasue i am missing something. That's probably what he meant; and i've been told to 'finish' my turns more before and not quite been able to understand what was meant by that.

Jilly; when you mean steering, what exactly do you mean? I've been apying attention to trying not to skid around so much, and going a lot faster than I used to; so I think that this must be my issue with whatever I am nt understanding.

If i look at pictures or videos of other people, or other people skiing, to try to figure it out, i don't see them pointing their skis straigth across, much less up, at the end of every turn. I'm certain I must be missing the point of what the 'finish' is. I've been able to get going where the skis are sort of helping me through the turn before, but not a forceful 'bounce;' I understand that part of this cocnept though, i think. The turn finishing thing though, i don't get. And if i do it once in a while, then it's probably dumb luck, since i don't quite understand. The only lesson I ever got to take, that was the only advice i got; and i just didn't grasp exactly what that meant i should be doing because i'd just sort of turn until it felt 'right' to turn again, or i'd gone the same distance as last time or whatever; and so i thought that meant i was 'finished.' Apparently, it doesn't.

so; do i really want to travel slightly uphill on EVERY turn; or only sometimes, or something completely different? Like, should I always be going like an S, curving up at the ends, and never like
(
)

?

and; thanks! I'm a verbal learner; i need to understand it in words before i can really figure out how to do it, so this is very helpful to me & i appreciate it!
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The required shape of your turns is dependent upon the steepness of the terrain you're on and the speed at which you'd like to be going. 'S' shaped turns are required to go slower and on steeper terrain, while ) shaped turns will result in higher speeds and can be used on flatter terrain. One of the reasons you don't really see other skiers doing it is because the best skiers have a really quick transition between turns, so one turn just flows into the other and their upper body continues to face down the hill while their skis work underneath them.

The best excercises to learn speed control using turn shape (learning to 'finish' your turns) is to do Rail Road Track turns and Garlands.

On flat to moderate terrain where you can see your tracks from the lift:
Make your usual turns and observe the 'end' of each turn....is there a clean line with a definite transition from one turn to the other, or does the middle-to-end of the turn tend to look 'smeary'? If 'smeary' is the answer, you're usuing skidding to control your speed rather than turn shape.

For RR Track turns: make 1 very shallow turn from across the hill until you naturally come to a complete stop, concentrating on leaving completely sharp, clean tracks (Rail Road Tracks). Focus on hearing 'ssssss', not 'skkkkkk' from your skis. You should find yourself facing almost directly across or slightly up the hill. Keep practicing this going both directions, gradually steepening the angle of attack. As your turns start farther up the hill rather than across the hill, you should find yourself facing more and more uphill at the end of each turn.

Once you're leaving clean tracks on each single turn, go back to doing shallower turns without stopping this time, beginning the next turn just before you come to a complete stop. Your goal is to be able to ski moderate terrain with 's' shaped turns leaving 'R R Tracks' in the snow.

Garlands are a lot harder to explain and really need to be seen to understand. They're basically the same type of shallow turn going across the hill with a 'roll' to the other set of edges to start down the hill before doing another across the hill turn.

When you finally 'get it' you'll find yourself looking for humps, lumps, drop-offs, and other terrain variations to go up, over, or around to experiment with other forms of speed control.....you'll be 'dancing with the mountain'!
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
Ditto - you can explain it better than I. I'm a visual person, but with that explaination I can see it. The CSIA calls it Dynamic Parallel. You also need to get those skis out to the side and your hip in the snow. That way the "snap" will rebound you over to the next turn. I wish I could get a copy of the video JB did of me in February. I know I was doing it on those Breezes.
 

SkiMonster

Certified Ski Diva
well as it turns out; none of these things are really what he meant;
and i've been so confused because I had THOUGHT I was doing a lot of these things, or it felt that way to me at least; and then he said this, and I started thinking i must have just 'felt wrong' or something, and not actually be doing it right.:rolleyes:

which of course has made me extremely frustrated, having thought "i got it!" and then thinking he was saying i hadn't, and I assumed i just hadn't felt what I thought i did or something... got myself all confused.

Thank you all for your input; it still helps me get a grasp on what i'm trying to do out there, and what to look for; and a lot of these are things I am trying to do more consistently.

What he meant though, it turns out, is that sometimes when I get in a situation where i'm on something really steep, or in a tight spot (since I started doing woods with him this year) i may not have time to make a nice smooth round turn like i've been learning to, and need to sort of 'snap' out a quick pivot/skid sort of thing, kind of pushing the tails out more. Basically; to make shorter, more forceful turns when i need to, I guess. I thought he meant to make all of my turns in a somehow different way.

It made sense when we went looking for pictures/videos; and i'm really glad I came here and asked you ladies, or we'd never have figured out how completely different things we were thinking of; and these are all good things to work on anyway!

So, thanks! and no wonder i was so confused! (and that's what I get for being so quick to doubt myself, I guess:o )
 

Quiver Queen

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Volklgirl, what is your real-life profession? Excellent explanations, something I could've benefitted from a few years ago--where were you? Good luck, Ski Monster!
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hmmmm....

Ski Moster,
So he was looking for you to be doing some hop-turns and you were trying to carve? Wow. Men and women really do think differently, don't they??? :rolleyes:

Quiver Queen,
Once upon a time I was a ski instructor. I'm still a Level II cert, but not actively teaching. I sort of gave up on my Level III because I hadn't taught any higher level lessons in a long time......instead, I'm trying to work up the courage to go for my Level 100 Coach's cert.
 

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