EDS and Skiing

[blueskysunnyday]

Gosh, I may have bitten off more than I can chew with my questions -- I have not actually been on skis for almost a year because of Covid, and remembering and explaining my struggles is more challenging than I anticipated! I am not sure pronation is the problem at all. I was just assuming that hypermobility is causing problems because it seems to affect all other aspects of my life.

I know that I was having a harder time controlling/moving the wider skis (initiating turns). My uphill ski often feels less responsive and like it is in the way or too heavy. I also sometimes have problems with my ski tips crossing both during turns and while cruising straight. Does any of that make sense?

 

[liquidfeet]

...
I know that I was having a harder time controlling/moving the wider skis (initiating turns). My uphill ski often feels less responsive and like it is in the way or too heavy. I also sometimes have problems with my ski tips crossing both during turns and while cruising straight. Does any of that make sense?

So let's put aside the hypermobility for right now.

You are crossing your tips? As in, crossing one over the other while skiing, and this makes you fall? Or as in, the tips come together into a wedge/snowplow position, but they don't actually cross over each other?

The first can easily be caused by too-big boots, so the skis are wobbly because of a loose fit. How many pairs of socks do you wear?

 

[liquidfeet]

....I went to SureFoot in Killington, and the footbeds are actually better than my prescription orthotics for holding my ankles straight. But my ankle still rolls back and forth in my boot when I try to edge. Boots are a snug race fit, and the foam is firm. I feel like unless I encase my ankle in concrete it's always gonna wiggle.....

@SquidWeaselYay I really don't like that bolded part up there. For whatever reason, whether it's from hypermobility or boot fit, your ankles should not be rolling at all in any boot that fits.

It sounds like your boot is too wide at the ankles, or it has too much volume and you consequently can't buckle the lower cuff buckle tight enough to hold your heel in place. But you say you have a race fit. The ankle-rolling and a race fit don't go together.

No boot, no matter the type of fit, should allow the ankle to roll leftie-rightie inside the boot.

--What foam are you referring to - is that the liner that came with the boot, or an after-market liner you bought separately?
--What adjustments did the bootfitter make to the boot when you bought it?
--Is one foot bigger than the other? If yes, which foot did the bootfitter use to figure out what length you needed, the shorter or the longer foot?
--Did the bootfitter remove the liner and do a shell-fit before choosing the boot for you? If yes, is that when he (she) asked you whether you wanted a comfort fit, a performance fit, or a race fit?
--In other words, what makes this boot a race fit?

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

@SquidWeaselYay I really don't like that bolded part up there. For whatever reason, whether it's from hypermobility or boot fit, your ankles should not be rolling at all in any boot that fits.

It sounds like your boot is too wide at the ankles, or it has too much volume and you consequently can't buckle the lower cuff buckle tight enough to hold your heel in place. But you say you have a race fit. The ankle-rolling and a race fit don't go together.

No boot, no matter the type of fit, should allow the ankle to roll leftie-rightie inside the boot.

--What foam are you referring to - is that the liner that came with the boot, or an after-market liner you bought separately?
--What adjustments did the bootfitter make to the boot when you bought it?
--Is one foot bigger than the other? If yes, which foot did the bootfitter use to figure out what length you needed, the shorter or the longer foot?
--Did the bootfitter remove the liner and do a shell-fit before choosing the boot for you? If yes, is that when he (she) asked you whether you wanted a comfort fit, a performance fit, or a race fit?
--In other words, what makes this boot a race fit?

My apologies. From what you are saying, I don't have a race fit, I apologize for my incorrect use of terminology. I will refrain from labeling it as such in the future.

The liner is a Surefoot foam-injected custom liner. The shell fit was the tightest we could go for without me having to scrunch my toes in a shell. My right foot is slightly longer than the other foot, but we went with the shorter foot. When my ankle collapses, it just kind of "squishes" inward more than completely rolls. My foot, no matter the orthotic, kind of "squishes" down over the arch and my ankle follows. I've worked with 5 podiatrists and tried 3 different prescription orthotics over the years to try to correct it, but the same problem persists. Foot squishes, ankle follows, knee collapses inward too. My only other option would be a custom hard plastic brace, but that wouldn't work for skiing anyway. My whole right side of my body has a lot of muscle imbalances and is my more hyper mobile side for some reason.

 

[contesstant]

@liquidfeet I'm curious to see your input on the pronation conversation. My right ankle pronates even with a custom footbed. I think it might have a bit to do with the forefoot varus on that side that is difficult to capture when getting orthotics made. Even my podiatrist has trouble. My ankles/feet have all the stability of hot mozzarella. I've been in PT for a while now to work on strengthening stabilizer muscles and glutes. I noticed that it helps a bit, but when it comes to edging my right foot is still sluggish. I think it may be connected to the muscle imbalances in my glutes/hips though. I'm hoping that with consistency in my PT routine (after finally finding a PT who is also an athlete and gave me lots of functional exercises), I'll be much improved in a year.

Both my ankles pronate even with custom footbeds, too. I totally get what you are saying. @liquidfeet, I'm not sure that most people can fathom having super low-volume feet (and for me, ankles) combined with hypermobility that affects every joint in our bodies. So, SquidWeasel has the same boots I do, which are a 92mm last Rossi Hero ZJ full plug boot. They are a race fit on normal people, for us, they are the closest we can get to a "normal" fit.

With hypermobility, we want our feet AND ankles as locked in as possible in our boots. Throw in (at least in my case) the inability to find a shell small enough and we're never quite locked in and stable. I will say, my skiing has jumped by leaps and bounds since I got into these boots one year ago (almost to the day.) But the Intuition liners have already packed out and did so earlier this season. I've added layers of duct tape in strategic places to help snug them down again, but it's time for new liners.

I don't think those with "normal" volume feet, and without their feet constantly collapsing inward inside the boots, truly can understand the constant battle we are doing with our skis, even in a very tight-fitting boot. It makes skiing crud and moguls a real battle. I will say, I've been experimenting with a thin layer of foam padding along the medial side of the cuff of the liner, which helps hold the knee out and in better alignment, and it has helped a lot. I can actually feel the tips of my skis (for the first time ever!) and can stand on one ski and do stork turns much more easily.

I, too, have "weak" hips, but what I really think is that they are incredibly tight due to having to work extra hard to support floppy feet and ankles. I've been doing some PT to help strengthen them and loosen them up. Jury's out on how effective it will be.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

This is what happens on my right side (more than my left). I couldn't find the exact picture my ortho showed me, but this is the same concept, different illustrator. I have the HIGHEST arch supports I have EVER had in my boots currently, but my ankle still likes to wobble/squish around. I'm working on correcting some of the problems that are contributing to this with PT by building up stabilizer muscles to do what the joints are too lax to do. I'm basically relearning how to walk and run correctly at this point and using the right muscles in the right order. I have no idea if this will translate to skiing or not. I'm hoping it will, since my right foot always wants to point outward and my right knee always wants to go inward. And the IT band popping at times should (in theory) stop too once I get straightened out. The stupid thing does it when I ski sometimes and it is startling.
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[contesstant]

This is what happens on my right side (more than my left). I couldn't find the exact picture my ortho showed me, but this is the same concept, different illustrator. I have the HIGHEST arch supports I have EVER had in my boots currently, but my ankle still likes to wobble/squish around. I'm working on correcting some of the problems that are contributing to this with PT by building up stabilizer muscles to do what the joints are too lax to do. I'm basically relearning how to walk and run correctly at this point and using the right muscles in the right order. I have no idea if this will translate to skiing or not. I'm hoping it will, since my right foot always wants to point outward and my right knee always wants to go inward. And the IT band popping at times should (in theory) stop too once I get straightened out. The stupid thing does it when I ski sometimes and it is startling.
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Yes, this!! Exactly! And my IT bands are CONSTANTLY sore. This illustration shows why adding padding to the medial side of the calf can help line things up. I'm hugging your from afar as this graphic is exactly what I've been trying for four years to describe to my husband.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Yes, this!! Exactly! And my IT bands are CONSTANTLY sore. This illustration shows why adding padding to the medial side of the calf can help line things up.

Ugh, the IT band issues are the WORST!!! I find that if I am not careful, once they start hurting, the day is shot. No amount of stretching or icing brings them back once they go over that cliff and I just have to limp around until the next day. I am finding that the PT exercises are helping with that though. I can now jog for about 30 minutes without pain, which I never thought I would be able to do again! Baby steps, but progress nonetheless!

Maybe I should try some padding like you did. My hip is really bad with the tendency towards rotation. Especially when I am getting worn out.

 

[contesstant]

Ugh, the IT band issues are the WORST!!! I find that if I am not careful, once they start hurting, the day is shot. No amount of stretching or icing brings them back once they go over that cliff and I just have to limp around until the next day. I am finding that the PT exercises are helping with that though. I can now jog for about 30 minutes without pain, which I never thought I would be able to do again! Baby steps, but progress nonetheless!

Maybe I should try some padding like you did. My hip is really bad with the tendency towards rotation. Especially when I am getting worn out.

Funny you mention jogging. I have always LOATHED running, even when I was younger. My knees would hurt so badly on the lateral side. I can ride a bike like a madwoman, though.

My IT band gets so fired up, if my husband lightly massages it up on my hip where the muscle actually sits, I will literally scream in pain.

The padding needs to go just to the top of the boot cuff, and I have a cutout for the medial malleolus.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Funny you mention jogging. I have always LOATHED running, even when I was younger. My knees would hurt so badly on the lateral side. I can ride a bike like a madwoman, though.

My IT band gets so fired up, if my husband lightly massages it up on my hip where the muscle actually sits, I will literally scream in pain.

The padding needs to go just to the top of the boot cuff, and I have a cutout for the medial malleolus.

That is how I felt when I had bursitis in the hip, RIGHT under the IT band. It was AWFUL. I don't know if it would help you, but I got this doohickey called "The Stick." It is mostly used by runners, but I use it before any athletic activity (along with stretching) all along my IT band and I think it does help. I might take it along to Montana when we go in a week. I like it better than foam rolling, which I always found awkward, cumbersome, painful, and ineffective. I even carry a Stick around in our camper van for when we go hiking.

Running is tough for me. I'm s slow runner because I have to really focus on my form/alignment, but I love the way I feel after a run. I only do it for the cardio.....and the runners' high

 

[contesstant]

That is how I felt when I had bursitis in the hip, RIGHT under the IT band. It was AWFUL. I don't know if it would help you, but I got this doohickey called "The Stick." It is mostly used by runners, but I use it before any athletic activity (along with stretching) all along my IT band and I think it does help. I might take it along to Montana when we go in a week. I like it better than foam rolling, which I always found awkward, cumbersome, painful, and ineffective. I even carry a Stick around in our camper van for when we go hiking.

Running is tough for me. I'm s slow runner because I have to really focus on my form/alignment, but I love the way I feel after a run. I only do it for the cardio.....and the runners' high

I have a roller stick. Nothing beats a good massage though!
I get that high from biking. I ride too much during warmer months, truthfully.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

I have a roller stick. Nothing beats a good massage though!
I get that high from biking. I ride too much during warmer months, truthfully.

I've actually never had a professional massage. Definitely on my bucket list though! I heard it can be really good for recovery!

I wish I liked biking, it would be so much better for my joints. For some reason I can't get into it, even though I have tried at several points in my life. Kayaking though....I'd kayak all day every day if I could just figure out how to get rid of all the stuff that gets in the way, namely work and chores and whatnot. Thankfully my shoulders don't have as much hypermobility as my lower body, so I can go nuts on the river without fear of subluxation.

 

[liquidfeet]

My apologies. From what you are saying, I don't have a race fit, I apologize for my incorrect use of terminology. I will refrain from labeling it as such in the future.

The liner is a Surefoot foam-injected custom liner. The shell fit was the tightest we could go for without me having to scrunch my toes in a shell. My right foot is slightly longer than the other foot, but we went with the shorter foot. When my ankle collapses, it just kind of "squishes" inward more than completely rolls. My foot, no matter the orthotic, kind of "squishes" down over the arch and my ankle follows. I've worked with 5 podiatrists and tried 3 different prescription orthotics over the years to try to correct it, but the same problem persists. Foot squishes, ankle follows, knee collapses inward too. My only other option would be a custom hard plastic brace, but that wouldn't work for skiing anyway. My whole right side of my body has a lot of muscle imbalances and is my more hyper mobile side for some reason.

Whoah. Sounds like your boots have been adjusted as much as any could. You might benefit from boot sole canting to counteract the knees rolling inward out of control. You might consider making an appointment with a bootfitter who works on racers regularly and ask about that, and maybe describe your situation beforehand over the phone. You need a real professional to help you.

 

[liquidfeet]

Here are some more images that I've collected over the years as I've tried to figure out why my knees collapse inwards and how to fix it. Had I never started skiing, this issue would never have come to my attention.

I too have low volume hypermobile feet. I suspect I have hip anteversion complicating the mess (see below). I love your descriptions, @SquidWeaselYay and @contesstant!

I do understand the frustration of the knees collapsing and having to learn to walk and run the right way at the ripe old age of 60 sometehing. I can't walk a straight line. Can't. Just can't.

 

[contesstant]

^^ That's another good view of it. For me with tiny ankles and super narrow feet, a foot bed and canting do not prevent my ankle from collapsing. I'm sure it's due to the forces used while skiing. I am discovering that this needs to come from up higher to support the whole chain. I actually just ordered a new set of Intuition liners, this time instead of the Race FX, I ordered the Luxury liner which has a bit more volume to it. I ordered the men's version because it most closely matches the Race FX. The women's is furry and has a cutout for the calf, which I do not need. When I first got my boots and liners a year ago, I was blown away at the control I had over my skis. I have a feeling a new set of liners will be an annual thing for me, since I ski typically at least 75X per year.

 

[blueskysunnyday]

So let's put aside the hypermobility for right now.

You are crossing your tips? As in, crossing one over the other while skiing, and this makes you fall? Or as in, the tips come together into a wedge/snowplow position, but they don't actually cross over each other?

The first can easily be caused by too-big boots, so the skis are wobbly because of a loose fit. How many pairs of socks do you wear?

So, my tips actually cross and it causes a moment of panic, often a flail and sometimes a fall. Those rental skis that have metal on the tips are the worst for me. The metal edges get caught on each other when the tips cross and they lock together. Sometimes I can pick the top foot up and unlock them, but I don't seem to be able to do that in a way that doesn't also potentially cause a fall. Not sure if that is an issue with my strength, my balance or my inability to remain calm in the face of danger (or all three).

I wear one pair of thin socks. I would not want to increase that because I have issues with my feet falling asleep in my boots (circulation) and with my neuromas. My feet fall asleep mostly when I am not actually skiing (on a lift, sitting for a break). I think this is because my arch is uncollapsed when there is no weight on it so the tops of my feet are hitting the boots really hard -- maybe I have a lot of veins on the top of my foot. Once I get going skiing again, the discomfort goes away and feeling comes back.

Do I need different arch support? I have Boot Doc high arch insoles that were thermally molded, but I am not convinced the arch is high enough. However, sometimes I think it feels better to ski in my prescription orthotics. I seem to have trouble either way.

 

[liquidfeet]

Tips crossing is not caused by the skis. It's caused by skis doing their own thing. You are not in control of them. Why you cannot keep the tips apart is the issue. First usual suspect is loose boots, but since that may not be the issue, it's impossible to diagnose here on the internet.

I think you need to ski with an instructor who can diagnose why those tips are crossing. Call the ski school director and explain what your problem is and ask for an instructor who can properly figure out what's going on. Pay for a private lesson. Just do it.

 

[blueskysunnyday]

Tips crossing is not caused by the skis.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the skis were causing the crossing. I know that it is my fault. I meant that with the ones with the metal tips, once they DO cross, the metal tips often lock together so I can't uncross them without some sort of drama. The metal tips prevent me from simply sliding the top ski back off because it is caught on bottom one. I realize this is probably not a problem a normal person has, based on the faces of ski instructors I have tried to explain the problem to!

 

[marzNC]

I did have custom footbeds made by my local boot fitter, but I really can't say that I know much about his credentials. I am in Richmond, VA. I feel like they do a pretty good job of supporting my arch, but I did need to add a little metatarsal bump for my new neuroma. How would I know if pronation is happening at the hip? Thanks, everyone!

Which ski shop did you go to? The best ski shop I know of in central VA is Freestyle in Charlottesville.

 

[blueskysunnyday]

I went to the Ski Center in Midlothian. Heard anything (good or bad) about them?