Edging for Learning to Carve - Skier Skill vs. Equipment Issue?

[yogiskier]

I took a group lesson at Catamount 2 weeks ago and did a drill I'd never done before - I think the instructor called it the "edge hold" - we were on a gentle slope and we traversed across on our edges in a natural curve and then looked back to see if we left railroad tracks. Well, I looked back and was surprised to see smeared instead of distinct tracks! Ha - lightbulb moment!

So now I'm working on my edging. I think it's starting to click - I practiced it on Monday and I think I'm leaving more railroad tracks (but it was also snowing and flat light, so a bit hard to see). It feels challenging to do, like my skis are heavy and I'm doing some edging but I can't imagine really angling them like I would really need to more challenging/steeper terrain. It was already hard to do in the powder we were getting that day from the falling snow (Not that I'm complaining about the fresh powder! It was fun ;-))

In addition, I got new boots this season and even though the last is narrower than my old beginner boots, I have to tighten the top buckle a lot to feel snug, which makes my calves feel constricted. I know I need to go back to the bootfitter, but I'd like to wait until I have 10 days in these boots so they're more packed out before going back there. Also, when I was getting the bootfitting they also mounted my new hybrid bindings and when they asked what kind of skiing I did, I said I was intermediate and athletic, but not aggressive, interested in getting into some sidecountry and tree skiing, and he said he was going to put me down as expert because he didn't want them to release prematurely. It looks like the DIN marking is at the 6 line, which if I put in my stats into a DIN calculator it gives me a 6.5 but an expert type gives 7.5, so maybe he kept me at intermediate after all?

This is all to say, do I just need more practice with edging to be able to rotate my ankles more or could there be an equipment issue?

 

[marzNC]

Good for you for taking lessons at a small mountain. I think there is a lot to be said for working on technique locally in preparation for trips to big mountains or back country skiing.

This is all to say, do I just need more practice with edging to be able to rotate my ankles more or could there be an equipment issue?

Never heard an instructor say "rotate" for ankles. It probably took me at least four seasons of lessons and practice to get to the point of being able to consistently do "railroad tracks" correctly. Still can't leave tracks like what a L2/3 instructor can do without even thinking about it.

At this point, I'm a solid advanced skier spending over 75% of the time on ungroomed terrain when the snow is good during trips out west. Except when there is deep powder, I use the DIN setting from the table for Type II. Type I, II, III, III+ are not really an indication of skiing ability level. At least not beyond Type I that is for pure beginners. There is reason that a never-ever skier ends up popping off a ski more often when they fall.

When it comes to steep terrain, bumps, and trees, what my friend has been learning in recent years is how to get on flat skis. He likes to carve and go fast on groomers. That's not the right approach for steeps. Or deep powder.

 

[Jilly]

Tip to grip is the latest CSIA verbiage. And that's it simply. Tip the skis to edge (or grip). I also wouldn't say rotate the ankle. You need to bend the ankle forward, tip the skis, by tipping your foot, which is attached to the ski towards the hill. Just like you're doing on the traverses. More tipping, with angulation will give you even more grip/edging and tighter turns.

@liquidfeet - do you have any nice pictures for her?

 

[yogiskier]

Okay, yes, I don't know why I said ankle rotation - that doesn't make sense! I should have said tipping my feet or angling the skis. Thank you @marzNC and @Jilly

 

[liquidfeet]

Tip the feet inside the boots. Tip them sideways.
Tip the ankles. Ankle-tip. These are all the same.
Do nothing else, if you want to learn to carve.
Do this on nearly-flat terrain, pointing skis straight down the hill.
Lock your eyes on something down at the end of the trail.
Seek to go straight towards that target. This part matters.
The tipping will take you left-right despite your desire to go straight.
Learn this way what tipping does.
Did I say do NOTHING else?
You won't get big round turns. You'll get little wigglies.
You will speed up. Allow that as long as you can tolerate it.
Look at your tracks. They should be two pencil-thin parallel tracks.

 

[liquidfeet]

Here's another video about tipping the feet inside the boots.
This is how I start every carved run, on any terrain.
This below is actually the video I wanted to post up there.

Start with the feet.
Point skis directly down the hill on beginner terrain.
Do NOT tip the whole body. Just the feet. Keep the torso upright.
The lower leg also tips in these videos, but the feet start it all.
To learn, just try just tipping the feet.
You may fall over when you first try this. I did.
Keep at it; there's a balance thing you need to learn.
To tip them more, get the lower legs to tip more.
Do all of this without tipping the torso.
No shoulder-leaning allowed.

 

[liquidfeet]

....we were on a gentle slope and we traversed across on our edges in a natural curve and then looked back to see if we left railroad tracks. Well, I looked back and was surprised to see smeared instead of distinct tracks! Ha - lightbulb moment!
....This is all to say, do I just need more practice with edging to be able to rotate my ankles more or could there be an equipment issue?

Several things can work against leaving pencil-thin tracks. An instructor can't diagnose some of these because they are invisible. The skier may be able to go through this list and figure out if any of those invisible things are going on, especially boot fit. Some things the skier can't usually feel or self-diagnose, such as habitual leaning, habitual back-seat balance, and habitual rotation of the skis and/or body.

1. Skier is leaning the upper body. Avoid doing that. It messes up the "platform angle" so the skis won't grip, they slip. Keeping the torso vertical produces enough "angulation" usually.
2. Skier is unknowningly rotating the skis across the snow surface. This rotates the tail out of the groove the tip is forming. This rotation/pivoting of the skis can happen in the shoulders first, the hips first, or the feet first. It just depends on what rotation has been embedded in the skier's muscle memory. Purge the pivot!
3. The skis are too torsionally limp to hold an edge. This means the skis twist along their length. When the tips go up on edge, they twist under the force so that they lie more flat to the snow. This happens if the skis are beginner skis. They are built to be "forgiving" so they won't grip when a beginner makes a mistake.
4. The skier is unable to hold the skis up on edge because they are wide. Wide skis (over 80) are physically harder to tip than narrower skis. The narrower, the easier to tip.
5. Boot fit is off. If you tip your feet inside the boots, but the boot doesn't tip the ski because there's air in there, well.... This comes from boots with too much "volume" for the skier's feet, or boots too wide. There are some bootfitter adjustments that can be done to fill the air in there.
6. Skier is back seat. More weight is over the tails of the skis, so even if the fronts of the skis are tipped, the groove they create is weak and the heavy tails won't want to stay in it. Bend forward at the ankles to get tongue-shin contact, and keep it that way as you tip the feet inside the boots.

Can simply practicing over and over fix the smeared tracks? Sure, sometimes, if the skier keeps trying different ways to do it. But I like analysis to lead the way in figuring out what might be the best fix.

 

[liquidfeet]

Those videos above that I linked feature skiers making round turns with lots of edge angle. I wish they spent some time showing what railroad track skiing looks like. RRtrx comes first in the learning progression, IMO.

If a skier practices RRtrx on beginner terrain, and learnd to make two pencil-thin wiggling lines heading straight down the fall line, then it is time to work on making the round carved turns these videos feature.

At that point, the skier will have purged the pivot, gotten out of the back seat, and learned to keep the torso as upright as possible so the skis will grip. To get rounder, wider turns, lower self down more so knees are bent more, then roll the knees down towards the snow to increase the edge angle that the tipped feet inside the boots started. Do this on beginner terrain, heading down the hill, with eyes locked on a target at the bottom of the hill. Let the skis do what they will; you are learning their personality by giving them freedom to do their thing. This is when rolling the knees starts being important.

You will gain speed, but if you complete your turns at least that speed heads across the slope with every turn. Carving is necessarily and by definition fast. It is dangerous on crowded slopes. Choose wisely where you do this practice.

 

[tinymoose]

When it comes to steep terrain, bumps, and trees, what my friend has been learning in recent years is how to get on flat skis. He likes to carve and go fast on groomers. That's not the right approach for steeps. Or deep powder.

This is one thing I've been working on and playing around with this year. It's less of an issue on my Yumis, but between the tune and just the ski design itself, I find it very difficult to get off the edges on my slalom skis. The issue is most noticeable on my SLs in bumps.

 

[Jilly]

Yes, you will have to "learn" how to flatten to move to the new edge. Deconstruct the turn slowly and it will come.

 

[yogiskier]

Awesome, thanks @liquidfeet! I bet I do the shoulder-lean and need to keep my torso upright and also pointed toward a target. You gave so many memorable sayings: "Do nothing else, if you want to learn to carve," "The tipping will take you left-right despite your desire to go straight. Learn this way what tipping does," and "Let the skis do what they will; you are learning their personality by giving them freedom to do their thing."

 

[liquidfeet]

Hey @yogiskier I am looking forward to reading your trip report on your visit to Cannon, too. We met briefly at Bretton Woods early last season, but did not get to ski together. This year you are SO ahead of me. All you folks here on the forum are skiing. Me, nope. I'm staying away in order to be super sure I don't bring Covid19 home to my particularly vulnerable family. It's so hard not skiing!

 

[Iwannaski]

@liquidfeet - kind of glad you’re being so cautious for your family, your bandwidth has really been useful to us here.

 

[ski skuhl]

I think this is applicable to this thread?Regardless of the skill a skier wants to develop and improve, my own experience is building the muscle memory on easier terrain until it is effortless and exactly that: muscle memory. Recently at Brighton I got down a double black run (Hard Coin maybe?) but I knew it wasn't pretty and felt more like surviving than skiing. It was my first day of a week long trip there and made myself go to gentler terrain to recall the basic, best habits. I was also due for my lesson which of course helped! Maybe it's just me but I notice a lot of skiers progress too quickly to steeper terrain.

 

[newboots]

I notice a lot of skiers progress too quickly to steeper terrain.

Ain't it the truth!