Drills to learn to release edges and flatten the ski before engaging for next turn

[Skisnow]

Have a number of teenage kids skiing with us and they all struggle with the same thing, edge control. When skiing normally they throw the skis from one edge to the other without allowing the ski to flatten between the turn and kind of kick the tails of the skis out.

We’ve done j-turns (fishhooks), and edge rolls (railroad tracks) and they all tend to skid these drills and oversteer instead of gradually rolling the ski edges and allowing the ski to work.

Would love any other suggestions of drills to encourage them to allow the ski to flatten between turns and patiently feel more before rushing into the next turn.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Jilly]

On a wide more gentle than steep...finish the turn and then bounce (Small hop) 3 times. On the last landing, set edge, steer skis to fall line.

So bounce, bounce, bounce woosh...

They shouldn't be able to land edged. The landing should be flat. Skis come off the snow, but meer inches, not a jump.

 

[liquidfeet]

That drill can be done with poles too ... Complete the turn so that the skis are pointed at the side of the trail and tap both poles three times between turns. This works best to promote a pause between turns, and to help skiers get their turns completed during this time. Pole taps won't promote flattening the skis, however.

 

[marzNC]

Have a number of teenage kids skiing with us and they all struggle with the same thing, edge control. When skiing normally they throw the skis from one edge to the other without allowing the ski to flatten between the turn and kind of kick the tails of the skis out.

We’ve done j-turns (fishhooks), and edge rolls (railroad tracks) and they all tend to skid these drills and oversteer instead of gradually rolling the ski edges and allowing the ski to work.

Would love any other suggestions of drills to encourage them to allow the ski to flatten between turns and patiently feel more before rushing into the next turn.

Thanks for any advice.

I'm not an instructor. But in the past decade I've skied with tweens/teens at Massanutten (northern VA, 75 acres). Most had done ski school or at least a few lessons at Mnut.

Have you done side slipping with them? I did that with my friend's tween last season. We practiced on a very short section on the side of the easier blue (mid-station Lift 5). It's just wide enough for one person to side slip. I made it a requirement before I took her to the top of the harder blue (top of Lift 5), as I've done before with people learning to ski. So the tween was motivated to pay attention.

Pretty sure my friend's daughter had done side slipping before during ski school, although she didn't remember the term. She usually only skis one holiday weekend a season. She learns quickly in general. I simply demonstrated and had her do the same. We did a 2-sec side slip followed by an edge set (I was counting). Initially I had to prompt her to re-set her skis to be parallel before trying to side slip again. We would get in 4-5 side slips before we lost the terrain that is steep enough for practicing side slips.

The first couple times we went up the harder blue, we side slipped instead of even trying to make turns for a bit more practice. That's where I watched my daughter do side slips with an instructor during ski school about 15 years ago. Then I had the tween follow me down the headwall. I knew she could do that even without the side slipping drills.

I'd learned about where to practice side slipping on the easier blue from a semi-private lesson that I did with a few friends early last season. It was a mixed ability group with two advanced and one intermediate skier. What the advanced skiers were supposed to practice there was pivot slips. It had never occurred to me to try practicing that drill on that slope before.

Only reason I have a vague idea of how to teach someone to side slip is from lessons. Especially observing an instructor during semi-private lessons with a mixed-ability group. I learned to side slip long ago as a survival skill on straight skis when I was in middle school. Learning how to start a side slip on a green or easy blue (2013) as part of a garland drill at Massanutten was the first time I heard an instructor say what movements to make from a standing start.

 

[liquidfeet]

These are teenagers, right? Will they take your instruction? Do they want to change their skiing technique?

If they do, there's hope. It sounds like they are swinging the tails around quickly to get them to point in the new direction, thus cutting off the entire top of all their turns. Along with this, they probably are not completing their turns. This combination is quite common.

The problem with this technique is that the skis, once they are pointing the new direction, won't grip on hard snow when there's decent pitch to the slope. The turns will be unnecessarily skidded and out of control. The harder the snow, the steeper the pitch, the worse this will be. Loss of confidence will happen, and it's justified. They are skiing out of control. Doing this technique for years, however, can cause a skier to become complacent with that skidding. I've seen this in New England skiers who have been skiing for years. They think this is the way hard snow needs to be skied. They are wrong, and dangerous to themselves and others below them. It will be good to replace that technique for making turns now while they don't like its results.

They need a new initiation technique. There are three different initiations that I teach. One is roll both skis onto new edges. Railroad tracks is step one for teaching this initiation. It leads, when done properly, to carved turns with no pivoting of the skis at all.

You've tried teaching them to roll the edges (RRtrx) and their pivot continues to invade their movements. That's normal when the pivoting is embedded. It's quite difficult for a skier to let the skis do the turning on their own. Skiers need to be very persistent to "purge the pivot" from accompanying the edge roll. It's worth continuing to work on it anyway. Get them to understand that they have an embedded habit of pivoting the skis, and that the pivot will want to happen without their permission. Let them notice this, and verbalize that yes I felt it happen. They will need to feel the skis scrape against the snow. And they will need to feel the skis slice across the snow and recognize the two feelings are different. This is what the J-turns you've had them do are for. Feeling the slice, with no skid.

But getting your teens to transfer their RRtrx and J-turns to linked turns down a blue slope is a very big ask. One day won't do it. Several mornings, followed by free skiing in the afternoons won't do it either. That kind of turn, where they tip the skis onto downhill edges and ride those edges around is a huuuge leap from the quick-pivot-heel-push they are currently doing. But it's definitely worth working on.

 

[marzNC]

But getting your teens to transfer their RRtrx and J-turns to linked turns down a blue slope is a very big ask. One day won't do it. Several mornings, followed by free skiing in the afternoons won't do it either. That kind of turn, where they tip the skis onto downhill edges and ride those edges around is a huuuge leap from the quick-pivot-heel-push they are currently doing. But it's definitely worth working on.

Yep. My daughter started with ski school at age 4. She had a group lesson as a tween with a very experienced instructor. Walter ended up being my instructor since he taught the Over 50 lessons (discontinued a few years ago). He said after the lesson that she was being lazy and making Z-turns. For the terrain at Mnut, she didn't need to make nice round turns to be in complete control or for speed control. None of the trails are that steep for someone who can ski blues at big mountains comfortably.

Took me 2-3 seasons to start to learn to do RR Tracks correctly after my Mnut instructor showed that drill. That's when I started lessons after knee rehab in 2012. Didn't really understand his explanation so I did what I thought was correct. Learned later that I was actually still doing "park and ride," which was my old habit from being a stem-turn skier on straight skis long ago. Wasn't until I talked with my Bridger instructor about the relationship between Tai Chi and ski technique that it dawned on me that proper RR takes means always being in transition and never getting stuck in one position. Took at least another season to get the basics to work. Still working on the deep round tracks that the L3 instructors, presumably without thinking about it much.

 

[liquidfeet]

There are two other initiation techniques you can consider teaching them. One is easier than the other. Both will replace the pivot/heel-push. Both will give them better grip at the bottom of their turns.

The easy one is an "extension turn." It's easy because they are most likely already doing some version of the first part of it. But their version includes a pivot, and the extension turn should not have a pivot. Here's how I teach it.

1. Start on a low pitch, wide slope, with little downhill traffic, at slow speed. Do this progression here until it succeeds, then proceed in increments up to higher pitches and thus higher speeds.
2. Complete all turns once they get to the linked turns part. Heading across the slope is absolutely necessary to give them time to experience and think about what they are doing during the top half of every turn.
3. Step one: traverse, with upper body facing somewhat downhill, uphill hip and foot a bit ahead of downhill hip and foot. Notice that the uphill leg is short because of the hill and downhill leg is long. ..... Lengthen uphill leg. Do nothing else. Then shorten it. Lengthen it, shorten it, lengthen it, shorten it, repeat, in a traverse. The goal is to do this with one leg and not do anything with the other leg, purging the pivot.

**A heel-pusher usually stands tall at the start of the turn to lighten the skis, so they can be pivoted. There should be some familiarity with this movement, but maybe not in the detailed way I'm describing, with only the uphill leg lengthening (extending).

4. Notice that the skis will want to turn to point downhill when that leg lengthens. This is not due to a pivot. There are other forces at work. When that leg shortens, the skis should go back into a traverse, all on their own. Keep it up in both directions, until they are convinced that the skis turn on their own without them doing anything else but lengthening that uphill leg.
5. Now have them do the same thing but allow the skis to point straight downhill. Then shorten that same leg. On a low pitch slope this should be non-intimidating.
6. Now have them do the same thing, allowing the skis to point straight downhill for the length of at least one ski. Both legs will be long; they will be standing tall, with upper body facing downhill. The skis have turned beneath their upper bodies. .... Shorten the other leg, which will become the uphill leg as the skis turn themselves. ***Allow the skis to turn beneath the upper body, so they are again facing somewhat downhill as they go across the slope. This is important. ... They will have just made one complete turn by lengthening one leg, standing tall at the fall line, then shortening the other leg.
7. Now link these. Traverse to traverse, for completed turns. Body facing somewhat downhill the whole time.
8. Move to increasingly higher pitches and you're done. For teen thrills, do this on a slick hard-snow black groomer. Encourage them to count 1-2-3 when the skis point straight downhill, so they don't pivot them out of the schuss. (!!!) Shorten the other leg to get the skis to turn across the hill. The brave will feel very proud.
9. Important part: ask them to verbalize what they've done. Purging the pivot should be a part of what they say. You might, in teacher mode, ask them at every transition from one part of the progression to the next to explain what they just did and why. Verbalizing embeds the mental part of learning.

I've been taught this progression twice by examiners. The most impressive example was in a training session while doing wedge-christies The trainer was a PSIA demo team member (also examiner). I've been this taught while doing parallel turns by an examiner on a very hard double black groomer. Many of the instructors found their bodies unwilling to stay in the fall line and allow the shortening leg to create the turn on its own. They bailed. Some of your teens might consider this fun.

 

[liquidfeet]

Three initiations that I teach:
1. RRtrx and J-turns: rolling both skis onto new edges together without a pivot, to linked turns, and eventually to pure carved turns.
2. Extension turns: the skier extends upward to start a turn. **Requires upper body facing somewhat downhill through the turn.
3. Flexion turns: the skier flexes down to start a turn. **This also requires upper body facing somewhat downhill through the turn.

Flexion turns, where the skier goes down to start a turn, is more difficult for a heel-pusher to learn for two reasons. First, it does not include extending to lighten the skis at the start of a new turn, which a heel-pusher typically does. Also, it requires the skier to tip onto downhill edges before the fall line. This is scary. Here ai a progression.

1. Complete turns, work on a wide trail that's low pitch at first.
2. Traverse with upper body facing somewhat downhill, upper hip and foot/ski ahead a bit. Uphill leg will be short, downhill leg will be long.
3. Shorten/bend/flex the downhill leg. Then lengthen it. Shorten it, lengthen it, repeat across this wide slope. Watch for incoming uphill traffic. Notice that the upper body will move downhill across the skis as you do the shortening. This can be scary! Try allowing the body to move, but keep shoulders "level" instead of letting the downhill shoulder drop. This takes some time to learn. The skis will want to turn to point downhill without a pivot as you shorten that downhill leg. Repeat in other direction.
4. Shorten that leg for a longer amount of time so both skis point all the way downhill. Then lengthen it to return to the traverse. Repeat in both directions.
5. Do a full single turn by shortening that downhill leg, allowing skis to turn on their own to point downhill, then lengthen the other leg to get the skis to go across the hill in the new direction. They will do this without a pivot. Keep shoulders level and upper body facing downhill.
6. Link turns.
7. Move to steeper pitches.
Because this progression is less familiar and more scary, realize it takes more time to get a group to do it.

..............................
There's an alternative way of doing a flexion turn that skips the fall line part. You can ask your skiers to rotate the thigh/knee of the shortening downhill leg so that the knee points in the new direction. This will create a "bowlegged" look to the legs. Rotate the thigh/knee gently while shortening that leg. Shorten and point the left leg/ski to go left. Shorten and point the right leg/ski to go right. Keep upper body facing somewhat downhill with shoulders level, not leaning or tilting. A short turn will result.

 

[liquidfeet]

Or @Buttmonki you could get an instructor to work with them.

 

[marzNC]

Or @Buttmonki you could get an instructor to work with them.

Perhaps. Depends on the teen's interest and personality.

I realized I've skied with three sets of siblings in the last two decades. All three were a brother and a sister two years apart. All did ski school from a relatively young age, meaning in elementary school. They were kids my daughter skied with as a tween and my BIL's children. In these cases, one kid paid good attention to any instructor and the other wasn't that attentive. They all became intermediate skiers in about the same timeframe, in spite of the age difference. Afterwards, it became very clear that one sibling was better technically while another was much more passionate about skiing. The better skier was not necessarily the more passionate skier.

My approach for kids skiing at Massanutten is that they have to do a lesson on the first or second day of the season. Either ski school or a group lesson once they were old enough (age 7+). Applied to my daughter, my niece, and my friend's kids. Same during spring break trips to Alta. After they were tweens, more lessons were optional. On a trip to Alta, my friend's daughter didn't want to do ski school after a day. That trip included a family friend who also skis at Massanutten who she could ski with any time. He was sticking to easier terrain after recovering from a non-skiing injury to a shoulder (was wearing a brace). Her mother wanted to insist on more ski school so that her daughter could move beyond advanced intermediate. She was only skiing about 10 days a season at the time, 4-5 days at Massanutten and 4-5 days at Alta. She could ski any blue at Alta in pretty much any conditions. She's skied easier ungroomed terrain during ski school the previous season. I said that it was better to just let the girl have fun.

 

[Jilly]

@Buttmonki - are these kids from the race team your child is on?

Also there is one that we call, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. At the end of the turn, the skier rises up, lightens the skis, even raise the arms if needed. In this light position, there should be no edging. The idea is to float. Then slowly lower the body, start the edging to "sting like a bee".

The whole idea is patience at the end of the turn and gliding into the next.