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Help Needed: Diagnose my control issues?

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
@JO-ski - we'll get out next year for sure. I agree with the back seat issue too. As soon as you see the shin straight up from the boot, the butt has be at the rear. Think about more on the toes, by flexing the ankle. Or my saying at the ladies night I used to teach....your nose drips over your bindings. Another analogy is the ready position for tennis or basketball. We need to stack those bones and use them instead of the muscles.

Do some biking over the summer or in-line skating. They are great off season sports.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There's only one sport I know of that asks the sportee to hold the ankle closed. Horseback riding.

So this ankle thing is a very unfamiliar thing to do. Opening and closing happens in walking, hiking, running, bicycling, and skating, and just about every other sport. But none of them put the foot in a tall, stiff boot and ask the person to hold the ankle closed against the front of the boot cuff. It's just something one has to learn on snow.

Skating is a great dryland activity that does requires the skater to stay balanced over gliding feet.
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
Thank you everyone. I keep re-watching my video and now I think I look more like a praying mantis.!!! >.<

I think that I'm still learning the difference is between bending my knees vs closing my ankles. Is it correct to think that when I'm on flat land in my boots, I can bend my knees to close my ankles. But on a sloped hill, I need to bend my knees and lean forward to close my ankles and to get my 'nose over my toes'? Perhaps it really is a thing I have to feel out in my boots. I can't seem to close my ankles without bending at my waist. Argghh... I think I have to watch Ursula's video again...

@Jilly I'm sad we didn't get to meet this year! But next year for sure. We did like Brimacombe and would love to make that our local hill. The big hill we went to for our last outing this season was Blue Mountain. It was my first time and loved it!
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I’m still working on bending at the ankle to stay forward. I can feel it when it’s right, I think. I feel much more in control, despite the feeling of leaning downhill in a way that seems like it should be scary. It takes some time to be brave enough, but I was rewarded with feeling better control!
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Jo-ski, you DO NOT look like a praying mantis!

Don't get too hung up on perfect stance. While fore aft balance is pretty key to good outcomes, so are many other skills/concepts in skiing.

Think of ankles, knees, waist as three joints that move somewhat in unison when skiing. You probably automatically bend at the waist when you bend at the knees... impossible not to without falling over backwards. Not in ski boots, practice closing all three joints and respective angles simultaneously!

I like to imagine something soft in the front of the boot where tongue and shin meet. Not so soft by calf...like a thumbtack.

A flat land knee bend is still unfortunately only a knee bend. The motion is the same, to create forward pressure on the tongue of the boot, no matter what the ground below you is doing. The steeper the pitch the harder it is to execute good forward ankle flexion.

Maybe don boots and skis indoirs. Standing on flat ground, try to flatten imaginary marshmallows between tongue of boot and shin. Won't quite feel right without also bending knees a little, but could actually be done. Flat relaxed foot...stay super tall and just lean forward. Then add a bit of knee bend, and waist bemd and that is the sensation you're hopefully looking for.

A great way to feel this same position is to ride up on magic carpet aka skier conveyor belt. You lean forward to avoid falling back, by flexing at the ankle into the boot.

Happy to record a video if still unclear.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Hi Jo-ski!

Yes! Do watch Ursula's video again. Hopefully it will clear up some things.

I agree with @snoWYmonkey - you don't look like a preying mantis !! Lol! Or too hunched over for that matter.

To isolate the ankle joint so skiers feel it opening and closing, I do a little exercise with my students I call - the leaning tower of Pisa. :smile: In your boots and skis, on flat ground, stand tall, lock your knees straight and keep your back straight - no waist bend. Now lean as far forward as you can - kind of like a Nordic ski jumper. Rock forward and then back to vertical. Forward and back. We can do this on skis without falling over. With the knees locked and a straight back, the joint that is letting you do this is the ankle!

Of course, we would never ski like this. But if you first lean forward a bit with locked knees and vertical back - like a plank or a tower, then just flex your knees slightly, wow. It can put you into that relaxed athletic stance.

One reason it's important to bring your shoulders forward a few inches (by bending at the waist or hip) is because then you can use your body weight to help flex the boot. It's nearly impossible to flex a boot using just your muscles. But with shoulders over your toes, it suddenly gets a lot easier.

What I see in your last video, is that your knees are bent too much relative to the amount of ankle flex. It puts your weight back and is also a very tiring way to ski - lots of quad muscle engagement. Either flex your ankles more, or bend your knees less, or maybe best of all - a little of both. I think you will feel more comfortable and you will feel more control over your skis with less muscular effort.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
When I work hard on a skill, or spend time on more difficult trails, I always go back to a familiar, easier trail. That's when I can put together some of the newer skills along with the fun!
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There are a few things you can do during the summer to work on ankle flex (besides in-line skating, which is WONDERFUL for perfecting ski moves). You'll want to do all of these with and without boots;
  • In a narrow hallway, put your heels up against one wall and then put your face and elbows on the other wall while keeping your back and knees straight. This will give you a really great feeling for having the ankles full flexed.
  • Do some wall sits, but modify them so your heels are close to the wall and you get very little knee bend (just enough to stay in balance). Keep your back upright and fully against the wall.
  • Turn sideways in your narrow hallway with your feet in the middle of the hallway and drop your hip and side over to one of the walls, keeping your hands and arms forward, like you are skiing. Using your core and hip muscles, pull away from that wall and drop your other hip to the other wall. Really think about hands up and out and back very upright. Work on getting faster and smoother with this move and you should see a big jump in your skiing next year.
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
Hi ladies!! Ski season has begun yesterday for me! I started where I ended off last season on a bigger hill, which was great because the runs are longer and wider.

I actually read through all the posts on this thread I started last year to try and remember all the advice that was given about my backseat and speed issues. I totally practiced the sensation of bending forward at the ankles and rewatched Ursula's videos about balance and committing. I was not perfect. But I think I am totally understanding the idea of bending at the ankles. There were many times I caught myself sinking my butt too low and not having my shins touch the tongue of my boots. There were also many times that I saved myself from wiping out by adjusting my stance and lifting my butt up and 'bowing' more at the ankles!

The thing I really have to work on is my turns. I seem to still be zipping across the hill faster than I want to and it seems as though my skis aren't responding fast enough when I want to turn. Miraculously, I only fell once yesterday! And that was during my last run, which was a clear sign that I was tiring.

How do those people ski down a hill so calmly and make nice small S shapes?? If it looks informative, I'll try and post one of the videos that my husband took.
 

former-boarder

Certified Ski Diva
"How do those people ski down a hill so calmly and make nice small S shapes??"

I wonder about that, too! I want to be able to make small turns, as well as my current fairly large ones. If you figure it out, let me know. :smile: I'm also a pretty new skier. This is my second season.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
It takes time to be able to ski those admirable short radius turns with confidence. There's a lot involved.

But first, one does need to get more skillful at staying "not-aft." This is a big breakthrough. No one is perfect, and even Olympic racers hear their coaches tell them to get forward. Staying over the ski in the most functional way when making all turns is a life-time focus. Staying "not-aft" most of the time without having to think about it is an excellent goal. Most recreational skiers are usually aft to some degree, and they ski all kinds of terrain anyway. This is worth remembering.

Ski instructors will interpret how to do this differently; some focus on being "centered" over the middle of the ski (not over the middle of the binding), and others say forward over the front of the ski. These two ways of conceptualizing weight distribution over the ski can mean the same thing, by the way.

Short, completed (or mostly so), round turns are the golden nugget of advanced skiing. The journey can take years, not hours, to cement these turns into one's repertoire. It's well-worth the work and concentration it takes to get there.

Snug-fitting boots, snug in three dimensions, in length, width, and height over the foot itself (volume), are a necessity for those great short radius turns you see the occasional skier making. The foot and lower leg needs to send its messages rapidly without any lag time to the ski through that boot if the skier is making snappy turns with a fast tempo. Loose boots absorb the movements the skier makes and those messages sometimes never reach the skis. Rental boots are an inhibition, as are bought-boots that fit like rental boots. Most recreational skiers are in owned boots that are nevertheless too long, and some are also in boots too wide and too tall over the foot. This is a problem with the industry, with the way boots are marketed and sold.
 
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TeleChica

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Also, I can't recommend lessons enough. You'll get immediate and accurate feedback when you can actually do something about it. Your instructor will also have you do drills that will help your body do what it needs to do without you having to process everything. Getting lessons will help you improve quickly. Just my 0.2.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Hi ladies!! Ski season has begun yesterday for me! I started where I ended off last season on a bigger hill, which was great because the runs are longer and wider.

I actually read through all the posts on this thread I started last year to try and remember all the advice that was given about my backseat and speed issues. I totally practiced the sensation of bending forward at the ankles and rewatched Ursula's videos about balance and committing. I was not perfect. But I think I am totally understanding the idea of bending at the ankles. There were many times I caught myself sinking my butt too low and not having my shins touch the tongue of my boots. There were also many times that I saved myself from wiping out by adjusting my stance and lifting my butt up and 'bowing' more at the ankles!

The thing I really have to work on is my turns. I seem to still be zipping across the hill faster than I want to and it seems as though my skis aren't responding fast enough when I want to turn. Miraculously, I only fell once yesterday! And that was during my last run, which was a clear sign that I was tiring.

How do those people ski down a hill so calmly and make nice small S shapes?? If it looks informative, I'll try and post one of the videos that my husband took.

Wow! So impressed that you made a stab at reviewing all this info and putting it into practice ! Having a bombproof short radius turn is a worthy goal that will take you all over the mountain! Taking a lesson where you explicitly tell your instructor that is what you want to work on will be extremely helpful (and they will likely be impressed that you know enough to ask about it).

Sounds like you are doing a great job starting to play around with achieving balance in the fore-aft direction. Keep at it! We are all working on this and refining it - even very advanced and experienced skiers.

But I wanted to address one phrase in your post where you say:
“I seem to still be zipping across the hill faster than I want to . . “

This is likely due to your lateral balance - side to side - not your balance along the length of the ski.

You may be leaning up the hill a bit as you ski across the fall line at the end of turns. Or it may be that the slope has simply gotten steeper and you haven’t made the proper adjustment. If you are leaning up the hill - putting too much weight on the uphill leg - your skis will be more on edge which will make you go faster and track straight across the hill. Edges are fast!!

The fix is to make sure you truly commit your weight to the outside leg of each turn (the downhill leg toward the end of your turn). This will allow you to keep that ski flatter on the snow and to smear, slow down and lose elevation during the turn finish rather than track straight across the slope on your edges.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
"How do those people ski down a hill so calmly and make nice small S shapes??"

I wonder about that, too! I want to be able to make small turns, as well as my current fairly large ones. If you figure it out, let me know. :smile: I'm also a pretty new skier. This is my second season.
Welcome! Where are you skiing more often?

Not that many advance beginner/intermediate adults take lessons. That can mean small group lessons even on weekends, especially first thing in the morning. Can be one way to get over the hump so that skiing any blue becomes fun a bit sooner.
 

former-boarder

Certified Ski Diva
I'm from Washington State, ski mostly mid-week at Stevens Pass. I'm signed up for 6 weeks of lessons starting next Thursday. I took lessons last year and was able to progress to the blues, but am having difficulty getting past the lower intermediate plateau I seem to be on. I snowboarded for 20 years prior to switching to skiing and remember that getting mileage was essential, so I remind myself of that.
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
Totally agree that any lessons help everyone no matter the level of skill you own! Before I can get my next lesson in, I've just been trying some things from YouTube. I know that it's not the best way to identify problem areas etc, but it's better than nothing. I've actually learned a lot! This season I feel like I've finally grasped how to really lean at the ankles. I watched Ursula's videos numerous times too and yell COMMIT! to myself often!

I am totally feeling a lot more in control this season and therefore having a lot more fun! I went on some steeper hills last weekend too! It was on smaller 'local' hill so it wasn't the steepest blues that are out there. But still, they definitely had their steeper portions and I can make it down with control. :smile:

For anyone trying to learn the control part... I had an a-ha moment. last season I had problems getting my skis to respond as fast as I would like. Even if I was leaning into my skis when I intended to turn, I wasn't making my turns as fast as I needed to. I figured out that my problem was not that I wasn't leaning onto my ski... it was my upper body leaning into the hill when I was trying to turn. It made me both lose balance often and also didn't give me the control I needed to turn as fast as I wanted to. I also sank into my backseat a lot because of this leaning body position. So this season I made sure to be really cognizant of this and it has made things so much better!!

Another thing I couldn't grasp was the whole bending at the ankles thing. I found that really difficult to do for some reason. So in the beginning of this season, I went back and watched Ursula's video about body leaning. I thought I knew what bending at the ankles felt like. But all I was really doing before was bending at the waist and knees. If you only bend at the waist and knees, your butt sinks down in a sitting position too... which is the worst!

So the first thing I did my first time out this year was put my skis on and I just stood and leaned at my ankles while keeping my whole body stick straight. I leaned as far forward as I could. I found that when I tried this at home with only my ski boots, it still didn't help me get the full forward lean at the ankles compared to what I got when I had my skis on with my boots. The skis really do a lot of the resisting and having them on helped me lean forward even more when I practiced this. I finally understood this leaning sensation and tried it on the hill after. Total difference! After that, I just kept remembering the 'nose over the toes' and I've become a lot less fearful. :smile:

I've also had my hubby take some videos of me skiing so I can go back and see what I look like as well. Here's a video of me from last weekend. Please feel free to critique!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UOnrQhGzQHW4us1Gtggy2919ION8htoY/view?t=25s

What I'm trying to learn now is to be more fluid. Look at my body! I am still a praying mantis! But I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong that makes me look stiff. I don't feel as stiff as I look. I think I want to learn how to pole plant to get a rhythm going and maybe it'll help me be less stiff-looking. Any tips on what I can do about this based on what you see in the video??
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Awesome. You are on the right track! You just need to do more of what you’re already working on!

3 comments:

1) At the 56 second mark you are skiing toward the camera. Pause the video there. You are correct that you should avoid leaning up the hill. Ask yourself: could you lift up your right leg at that moment? It looks like there is still too much weight on it. Try this drill - don’t worry about turning. Just ski slowly straight across the hill and put all of your weight on the downhill leg. Leaving the tIp of the ski ON THE SNOW slowly lift and tap the heel of the uphill ski. You only need to lift it an inch or so. Just prove to yourself that you don’t have weight on the uphill leg. Then make a turn - any turn - and do it in the other direction. It may help to tilt your upper body down the hill a bit so that your downhill shoulder is a little lower than the uphill shoulder.

2) At the 58 second mark, pause the video just before you leave the frame. You are so right to work on ankle flex!! I love what you described about practicing leaning forward with skis and boots on. But it is not at all evident in this shot. Your hip and knee flex are pretty good. But without the ankle flex (shins straight up and down) your overall weight is too far back for having good control over your skis. This could be a boot issue! Have you worked with a bootfitter before? There is a lot they can do to soften the flex so you can get the ankle flex you need. It’s so important.

3) Arm position - not as important as the two things above but your elbows are tucked too far back. That’s why it looks so rigid. The proper arm position is relaxed, with elbows a couple of inches wider than your hips and just a bit IN FRONT OF your torso. Then hands should be a little lower than elbows - not at 90 degrees. With shoulders forward over your toes the upper arms are relaxed and hanging almost straight down - then just bend the elbows a bit. It should feel loose and relaxed. Not like it takes much muscular effort to hold them there.

Hope that helps! Try the heel tapping drill and take some video of it!
 

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