Help Needed: Diagnose my control issues?

[echo_VT]

i wouldn't be too concerned about lifting your elbows higher like frankenstein - again your arms aren't in one position during the turn. my arms are downhill mainly so that my shoulders are downhill - but like others said, it's a good way to get your body/center of mass over the binding of your ski instead of behind it.

the arm placement varies! they go from being next to me, to wider - all depending on turn shape, small or medium or large radius turns - they, like my lower body are in constant motion. holding one position in the arms is probably not great for the dynamic skiing you'll be doing at your hip joints and at your knees and ankles.

maybe to start, a drill we do is to have our open palms face down hill. this kind of gets our elbows in the right place and then we can adjust as needed thru-out the turn. i hope this helps...!

 

[JO-ski]

@echo_NY Sounds good! I will try it. Maybe if I start by having my elbows higher and away from my body, I can feel how they can bring my centre of mass forward. Then I'll try and keep my lower torso loose and let my arms loosen after and not be so stiff. I will give it a go!

I should try and keep this guy in mind as I advance... He's floppy but even has a good body angle!

 

[liquidfeet]

@JO-ski
If you turn your upper body, shoulders and head, to look in the direction you want the skis to take you, and if you do this in order to help make the turn happen, that's called "Upper Body Rotation." Using upper body rotation works, but it's a no-no.

It has very bad consequences. Your body, from the top of your legs to your neck, is where most of your weight is. When you turn it, it will drag the skis around and help make a turn, so that's why people do it. But Upper Body Rotation is one of the big bad intermediate no-nos. People stumble upon it as a technique and use it, then embed it in their muscle memory, and it's the devil to get rid of if they ever want to improve their skills. Turning the upper body to face the direction of the turn, and turning it uphill at the end of a turn if completed turns is your goal, is something I'd suggest you never do. Just don't.

Why is it bad? First, it makes short radius turns almost impossible. The rotation of the heaviest part of your body will throw you off balance whenever you try to make short turns. Short turns are necessary on steeper terrain, in bumps, and any time you want to go straight down the hill in a narrow corridor; turning the upper body to make that happen just doesn't work.

Second, another bad consequence of UBR is leaning into the hill to edge the skis as a supplement to the force provided by the body's rotation. Many skiers, trying to force a turn with extra effort, will lean their bodies in, as a unit, like the leaning tower of Pisa. Leaning in, or "banking," often accompanies UBR. It's another ineffective intermediate movement that keeps people from advancing once it's embedded in their habitual skiing. Try to avoid leaning in.

Ski turns need to be initiated with the feet and legs, not the torso. Keeping the torso more or less quiet is difficult when just learning to ski. Learning to make your turns with feet and legs is complicated because the movements are so unfamiliar. Learning to move your feet and legs independently from your upper body takes time, and usually involves lessons with an instructor, or some intense reading/watching of instructional resources. But is it worth it!

 

[JO-ski]

@liquidfeet Thank you for stressing that point. Totally agree that it is difficult to make it feel natural to keep the upper torso quiet and facing downhill at all times. It had been something I'm trying to remind myself and get used to. It's a bit foreign feeling having the feet almost 90 degrees to the upper body. But I have a feeling that it will also help me put weight on the downhill ski and to keep it there consistently because then I won't be leaning into the hill to put pressure and commit to my centre of mass over the downhill ski. Must commit!

I'm heading to the slopes this evening! Wish me luck! My only mission today is to LEAN FORWARD AT THE ANKLES! to get out of the back seat. I'm hoping the other tips that all you ladies have been helping me with will come a bit more naturally after I get that fundamental down.

 

[JO-ski]

And I'm back, and happy to report... I did my first blue run today! It was more out of necessity rather than by choice. We went up the lift and found out the green run wasn't open. So the only way down was the blue or blacks.

But perhaps it was a blessing in disguise. I knew I had to go slow to make it down safely. So I LEANED shoulders over my toes and did one turn at a time. Made it down bit by bit and didn't wipe out! And I totally felt in control!

It is definitely a moment of triumph for me! I totally get it now and know what leaning really means and feels like... Not from the waist only but in the core and shoulders.

Before today, I felt 50% in control. Today I felt about 75% and much happier. It's only 75% mainly because I'm feeling like my turns still don't happen as quickly as I'd like. But I know why that was... I focused a lot on making sure to lean forwards today and often 'forgot' to stay facing downhill. I don't think I was getting enough power on my downhill ski because I was essentially leaning too much into the hill.

There were a few runs when everything was jiving. And there were a few wipe outs. But hey, I stopped counting.

There's this exercise that I figured out myself today that maybe would help describe how I try to maintain facing downhill. I pretend that I'm holding not a tray, but an empty picture frame in front of me. So when I'm skiing and turning, I remember to look in the picture frame and always frame the scene downhill. This totally helped me keep my elbows off my body and in front of me, kept my focus farther down the hill, and kept me leaning on my ankles.

Another thing I noticed was that when I'm turning on 2-4-2 edges for my turns, I tend to lean on my backseat for a very brief moment at the '4'. I have to commit to being forward!

I'm happy with where my skills are going in my first full season! Thank you all!

 

[liquidfeet]

@JO-ski

You are working at this skiing thing so hard! This pays off, and it's fun to read your progress.
One thought...

The Love Spot
There's a ski instructor who conducts camps at Aspen that has a name for the spot in the turn when most back-seat skiers "go backseat." His name is John Clendenin, and that spot in the turn he calls "The Love Spot." Isn't that funny? He's trying to make that scary spot in a turn sound lovable.

It's the part of the turn where you're headed across the hill ending the old turn, and it's now time to start heading downhill to start the new turn. The Love Spot. Bending forward at the ankles to get "forward" or to "stay forward" at that spot feels scary as a new skier ... it feels like you're diving head first into the abyss. It feels like you'll surely fall and break something. It stops feeling scary when the skier has done it often enough for the body and mind to know from experience that that bending forward at the ankles right then and there makes you safer and more in control, more capable of slowing down when that's what you choose to do.

I think that might be what you're describing above at the "4."

 

[JO-ski]

@liquidfeet I know, I have become really into skiing this winter. It's really addictive! Right now I'm skiing on 'local' hills that are an hour away from home. Seems like we've been going every other weekend! My hubby is also really into it. The local hills are tame enough for practicing and they also have night skiing that makes lift tickets affordable.

As much as I get frustrated when I have a bad day or can't overcome obstacles, it all becomes worth it when finally I pinpoint my issues (with all the help from you and the divas!) and know how to fix it. So satisfying! Mainly, I would love to feel happy and in control with my skiing in hopes that I can graduate next season (maybe the later part of next season) to a real mountain! I would love to ski in the scenery in Banff or Whistler (even if it's from the easy runs) one day, and not feel intimidated or limited. A ski vacation would be fun! I'd like to be a better skier so that those types of vacations in the winter will be worth the experience and cost.

You know it. The Love Spot is the moment that I want to pay attention to next time. It does trip me up and messes up my rhythm and control. Once I lose it at the Love Spot, it's most likely that I lose control of my speed and go faster than I'd like. There was a few times when I was going fast and was about to wipe out and I really got my arms forward and leaned over my toes to save myself. Those times were actually scarier than falling!

The other thing I've learned is actually all about my boots. I am still getting the feel of what is too loose and too tight. I watched numerous videos on the proper way to put on boots. I'm going to take extra care to get my heels more at back-end in the boot and flex it forward a bit more before fully tightening my buckles. Anyone have advice on if it's better to buckle boots sitting or standing in order to achieve the correct buckle tightness?

 

[marzNC]

Anyone have advice on if it's better to buckle boots sitting or standing in order to achieve the correct buckle tightness?

I usually put on my boots while sitting down. But may stand up briefly to set my heel. There are times that I don't buckle as tightly as possible before the first run. Depends on where I'm skiing, the temperature, and whether I skied the previous day or not.

I often take off my boots when eating lunch. I have 3-buckle boots that are easy to get on and off. My feet tend to sweat, even when it's cold. Allowing my socks to dry out a bit makes it more comfortable in the afternoon. While I sometimes change socks, that's not a given.

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

 

[santacruz skier]

I prefer to buckle my boots sitting down as easier on my back... often leave buckles somewhat loose for first few runs.... then cinch down and see the difference....

 

[Powgirl]

@JO-ski... skiing can be very addictive!! It's nice that both you and your husband enjoy it together, and with practice, you'll be amazed at where you'll be the next few seasons.

One thought that keeps me in check when on steeper terrain is being in the backseat will most likely cause my skis to slide out from under me, which I do not want...I would say this is the number reason for most of my falls...keeping forward, with pressure on that outside ski will keep you in control...

I always put my boots on sitting down (in the parking lot). I have a walk mode on mine, so I keep them pretty loose until I'm ready to ski (lunchtime, as well)...I have a 3 buckle boot too, that fits very snug...when I click in, I keep my toe and ankle buckle just tight enough to not come undone...the top buckle and strap are pretty tight...and this works well for me.

 

[JO-ski]

Here's a video of me last night. I can totally see (near the end of the video) that I am leaning towards the hill instead of facing down the hill. Gahhh!

Apologies for the blurry video, but feel free to give any comments!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FfYkLyDLb4npxll1YDMnHtYjZb1d-qS9/view?ts=5a9c2fd9

 

[newboots]

You’re really coming along!

 

[santacruz skier]

Hey you're skiing at night. And doing fine...... actually better than fine!

 

[Powgirl]

Lookin good!

 

[JO-ski]

@santacruz skier @Powgirl @newboots
Thanks all! I love skiing at night... Look at the empty hill!

 

[volklgirl]

Nicely done!

 

[JO-ski]

Hey everyone,

So the last ski for me this season was last weekend. :( It'll be too warm by the time we are able to find a chance to make it back out this month, so we made it count and went to the biggest hill in our area. So much fun! The runs were 3 times as long as our local hill. We also went at night so the wide and long runs were super fun! I actually went down a blue and made it down with full control, no wipe out! So nice to end on that note.

I am totally ready for next season now! I'm fully understanding the importance of stance and how it feels when you properly get out of the back seat. My hubby took a video of me and despite me being in full control, I still have to work on being more relaxed. On this run in the video, I totally wiped out in the end. Like, the hardest I've ever wiped out! I was actually nervous I had a concussion at one point, but I didn't. Not sure how I wiped out but immediately before I did, I went bombing down the hill and I probably leaned back because I was freaking out about my speed.

See video here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/161no6-yLQUDAQmAm4XI9eV0FGPGl_-ww/view?ts=5aaf081a

On this run, I am leaning forward and my shoulders are over my toes, which gave me lots of control, but I think I'm leaning too low from the waist as well. I look like hunchback of Notre Dame. Do I have to bend like this in order to get out of my back seat?? I guess I also feel 'safer' when I'm leaning close to the ground, if that makes sense. It doesn't look very elegant though. You guys have any suggestions after seeing my stance?

Just wanted to say thank you to all Divas here who were of great help this season for me! I only took one lesson and I think I did pretty good! Next season I'm good for another lesson and also perhaps Diva East!!!?

 

[liquidfeet]

....
On this run, I am leaning forward and my shoulders are over my toes, which gave me lots of control, but I think I'm leaning too low from the waist as well. I look like hunchback of Notre Dame. Do I have to bend like this in order to get out of my back seat?? I guess I also feel 'safer' when I'm leaning close to the ground, if that makes sense. It doesn't look very elegant though. You guys have any suggestions after seeing my stance?....

Bending at the waist as you are doing does position some of your body forward of your feet, which is good. But you already know that this way of standing on your skis leaves you very few options for adjusting your balance when something happens. There is something that you can do with how you are standing that will allow you more control, and more ability to adjust to the unexpected without losing your balance. It will also feel better.

Look at the following images. All these people are doing something with their ankles that
you are not yet doing. It's something you'll need to train yourself to do. It helps tremendously.

 

[liquidfeet]

Here's what they are doing with their ankles. These are close-up images of the pics above.


Here's what you are doing with your ankles.


Can you see that most of your whole body is behind your feet? Your legs come straight up, at a right angle from the surface of the skis. Your lower legs are not tilted forward. They need to be. Try to bend forward at the ankles, as those experts in the other images are doing. Practice doing that when you are standing around as well as when skiing.

I suspect the confidence you'll feel will be immediate and remarkable, because you will have more of your body hovering over the fronts of your skis. At first I skied the way you are skiing (I started skiing late in life), and I remember what it felt like. My shins went straight up from my skis at 90 degrees, just like yours do. I had little control over my skis, but kept skiing anyway because I had hope I could figure things out. You look like you are rigid, if not from fear, then maybe rigid because of excessive caution. Once the ankle thing was fixed, my skiing got a lot better fast, and it will for you too. By the way, no one told me to do this with my ankles for years, so it took that long for me to figure it out. I wish people had said something other than "get forward."

The ankles - work on keeping them bent forward, aka "closed." Doing that won't make you go faster, just in case you think it will. It will enable you to go slower. I'm all for going slower. Once you can go as slow as a snail, on purpose, whenever you want, then you can start going faster, on your own terms. The skis will no longer decide when they want to go faster, because your body will be pressing the fronts of the skis down onto the snow. It will be so much easier to shape your turns in order to slow yourself down.

Have an enjoyable summer, and keep those memories of your favorite days on snow alive in your imagination!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Great improvement! I agree with the posts above that pressuremithe front cuff of the boot with more dorsi flexion aka ankle flex will be key.

I suspect from looking at your snow spray pattern and tracks in the snow that next year's focus will also include some sude to side balance fine tuning. In the second half of your turn you are standing heavily on your inside ski, and atvtimesyour skis are locked on edge. This coupled with wide turns equals high speed turns with few speed control options

They may not seem like skiing but PSIA and USSA drill videos are great and even racers still do them. I use them for myself and students all the time.

Love how stoked you are to keep improving your skills and have fun and be safe with a sport we all adore.

See you next year!