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Help Needed: Diagnose my control issues?

CrystalRose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
You sound like me a few weeks ago! Read it here.

The TL;DR: I went ahead with some seasonal rentals, probably will sell the skis, and get something more beginner friendly.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Hello! and :welcome:

If you continue to struggle, you might want to have the shop check that the new skis are flat (they use something called a "true bar") and in tune. Usually new skis are fine, but sometimes they need the attention of a really good shop.

I'm a year ahead of you and probably a few decades older. It does get easier! Lessons help a LOT. And finding easy green terrain (or bunny) helps enormously. I remember lapping the bunny hill over and over last year, just trying to work on one piece of the pie. It helps so much not to be busy trying to stay upright (or stay alive)! Everyone has told me to go to easy-for-me terrain when working on new skills. If you think about it, your brain is only able to focus on one thing at a time, so better to focus on the skill than challenging terrain.

I had to do this today. On trails that were normally more-or-less manageable for me, there was 8"+ of tracked up, pushed-around powder. Challenging! All my focus was on getting down the hill in one piece. I retreated to easy greens that had only gotten 3-4" since grooming, and I could work on upper body separation, pole planting, and feeling my big toe/arches while enjoying the "powder" day.
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
Hello! :wave: Thanks @newboots ! I think I will have to do that. I have no shame spending half my days on the bunny hill repeating my form and feel comfortable. Plus, the magic carpet line is shorter than the lifts'. ;)

When I bought my skis, I made sure to get the bindings installed by the shop. The guy there seemed really experienced, as he tuned skis with his dad since he was young. He showed us all these little details about DIN numbers etc. and I made sure to tell him my experience level in a bit of detail so he'd set things correctly for me. I will be sure to go back to the shop if I can't change my performance for any mysterious reason. FYI, I have the Volkl Flair 76's with the Rossignol Pure 80 boots with Superfeet insoles.
 

Powgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@JO-ski ...you might have to be a bit patient with your new skis...they are recommended for an intermediate- advanced skier. I demoed the men's version (RTM) last year and they would shoot me across the hill at a high rate of speed every time I was edging/carving them (I did not end up buying them).

I like your idea of just focusing on transferring your weight onto the downhill ski...really step onto it...and let the inside ski just come along for the ride...a helpful tip from @liquidfeet is to slightly raise the heel of your inside ski...this forces you to balance over the outside ski...

Agree with others...don't try to edge your skis right now...it's probably what's shooting you across the hill with speed...once you get comfy on your new skis and length, and you master the parallel turn, you can move to edging/carving....
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
Hi Divas! :wave: So I'm back from my day on the slopes. After today I confirm that I need to take one more lesson before the season is over! I tried some things that you ladies taught me here. I did OK. But I still am not happy with the amount of control I have - in which I mean, I need more of it. I also skiied at a hill that I've never been to before. It was actually smaller than my normal hill but the green run they had was steeper! It was actually a trickier run, where it was shorter and also the middle portion had quite a turn and was also steeper than what I was used to (practically a portion that was a blue level of slope). It was also crowded so there was not much room to freely do wide turns.

At the start of the day, I practiced on the bunny hill and told myself to keep my weight on the downhill ski, keep my forearms in front of me, and also turn my upper torso towards the fall line. I felt that changed my stance quite a lot because I never felt all 3 things working together before. That told me that I wasn't in the correct stance this whole time! I totally felt the control when I had it all going! I had one really good run on the green and was still going pretty fast, but I was in total control with my turns with all those 3 things working together. I'm still not sure if I was supposed to be going that fast because of my new skis, or if I needed to still improve my control.

As the afternoon approached, I think I was getting fatigued, and my body just got tired and lazier, which made my stance fall back into my old habits. I wiped out more times than I wanted to and felt frustrated again. The thing that really trips me up is lightening my uphill ski. I know I tend to lift the front portion of the ski up, which shouldn't happen at all, and that's when I start to lose control and go way faster than I'd like. I find it a bit tough to lift my uphill ski from the heel end. I also have a bit of a 'backseat' problem. Must practice!!! Looking forward to a lesson. I am sure that I will get some pointers when I have someone spotting me to identify my mistakes. :noidea:
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Sounds like a good day overall! Doesn’t it feel wonderful in those runs (or in those moments) when you’re doing it right? I love it when I have one of those moments!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@JO-ski, you said the following, and I've made comments in red:

"At the start of the day, I practiced on the bunny hill and told myself to keep my weight on the downhill ski That would be the bottom part of your turn, right? What do you do for the top of your turn, before the skis point down the hill? , keep my forearms in front of me Good!, and also turn my upper torso towards the fall line Or just keep it more or less facing that way for the whole run. I felt that changed my stance quite a lot because I never felt all 3 things working together before. That told me that I wasn't in the correct stance this whole time! I totally felt the control when I had it all going! Excellent! I had one really good run on the green and was still going pretty fast, but I was in total control with my turns with all those 3 things working together. To control your speed, work on finishing your turns, or "completing" them; that means get your skis going across the hill at the end of every single turn, every time... this will reliably keep you from gaining speed. I'm still not sure if I was supposed to be going that fast because of my new skis, or if I needed to still improve my control. Skis do not have built-in speed; something you were doing created that; with new skis and new boots unexpected ski behavior is normal until you get your movement patterns adjusted. It just takes time, that's all.

"As the afternoon approached, I think I was getting fatigued, and my body just got tired and lazier, which made my stance fall back into my old habits. Most new skiers fall aft when tired; that's normal. I wiped out more times than I wanted to and felt frustrated again. The thing that really trips me up is lightening my uphill ski. This must be during the bottom part of your turn, when the inside ski is uphill of the outside ski. Do you know what you do during the first part of your new turn, before your skis point downhill? Try to figure this out, thinking of a turn as having a C shape. A right turn will have the first third going left, then the middle part going downhill, then the bottom part going to the right. See if you can slow down the top part of your turns, and pay attention to what you do then. I know I tend to lift the front portion of the ski up That means you're aft; keep working at lifting the tail only; bend your ankle forward to allow your whole body to move forward, then try lifting the tail of the inside ski; this should work, which shouldn't happen at all, and that's when I start to lose control and go way faster than I'd like. I find it a bit tough to lift my uphill ski from the heel end. I also have a bit of a 'backseat' problem. Must practice!!! Looking forward to a lesson. I am sure that I will get some pointers when I have someone spotting me to identify my mistakes."

Skiing is technical; isn't it fun to feel new control and better flow when you tweak one or two little things??? Then it's time to drive those movement patterns into muscle memory with deliberate practice. Do take another lesson; it's a great idea to have someone right beside you telling you what's happening. It sounds to me like you're figuring out the right stuff to do.
 
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JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
Thanks so much @liquidfeet ! I'm not sure what I really do at the first part of my turns. I do know that if I'm not leaning forwards enough, nor have my forearms in front of me, nor facing the fall line... I go way too fast! And so the first part of my turn is over sooner than I would like. Then I rush into the transition by turning towards the fall line, and of course I lean back with momentum because I wasn't leaning forwards in the first place. I think in the transition portion, I'm not leaning down the hill, so once I start going fast, it becomes a snowball effect all the way download unless I wipe out...

So what I really have to work on is my stance all the way from top to bottom of one turn. I find that I can't really slow down even if I turn and finish my turn. Maybe I'm skidding too much or not actually traversing the hill because I don't have total weight on my downhill ski because of my incorrect stance? I blame it on my stance! I know it's pretty fundamental, so I should really work on it and get it into my muscle memory.

The fact that I couldn't even practice the simple things on the bunny hill at the end of the day was also a sign that I was definitely fatigued.

Can't believe the season is almost over!!! At least on the east coast... :(
 

diymom

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Can't believe the season is almost over!!! At least on the east coast... :(
Almost over?!? What'you talkin'bout? We haven't even gotten to the spring skiing yet!
L'il ol' Chicopee up in Ontario closes early March because of the snow mobile races they have booked in each year, and I am sure it is a big money maker for them so can't really hold it against them, but most other hills will keep turning the lifts for a while yet. I agree, the season feels like it is going too fast this year. Getting out only once or twice a week doesn't feel like enough. But even at Wachusett here in MA, my last day of the season last year wasn't until April 9. So don't despair.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
And Killington makes a point of staying open until . . . well, they load up snow on a few trails, and keep using them well into May if at all possible. By then you have to dodge the muddy areas, but if you're hooked and going into withdrawal, it's still skiing!
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
There's all kinds of snow north of you. Blue will be open well past Easter too. @newboots - Killington is at least a 10 hour drive from Toronto.
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks so much @liquidfeet ! I'm not sure what I really do at the first part of my turns. I do know that if I'm not leaning forwards enough, nor have my forearms in front of me, nor facing the fall line... I go way too fast! And so the first part of my turn is over sooner than I would like. Then I rush into the transition by turning towards the fall line, and of course I lean back with momentum because I wasn't leaning forwards in the first place. I think in the transition portion, I'm not leaning down the hill, so once I start going fast, it becomes a snowball effect all the way download unless I wipe out...

So what I really have to work on is my stance all the way from top to bottom of one turn. I find that I can't really slow down even if I turn and finish my turn. Maybe I'm skidding too much or not actually traversing the hill because I don't have total weight on my downhill ski because of my incorrect stance? I blame it on my stance! I know it's pretty fundamental, so I should really work on it and get it into my muscle memory.

The fact that I couldn't even practice the simple things on the bunny hill at the end of the day was also a sign that I was definitely fatigued.

Can't believe the season is almost over!!! At least on the east coast... :(
So, the 2 simplest things that stand out here are; 1) your stance is too far to the rear from the very begninng of every turn, and 2) you're not actually finishing your turns across the fall line, even though you think you are. Both of these are among the commonest of mistakes that beginners make - you are NOT alone!!!

Staying on the easiest of terrain, do partial or single turns. Standing across the fall line, flex way forward at your ankles only....really crush the upper cuff of your boot forward onto your instep. Now, let your ski edges release and let the turn start. Stay patient and let the turn happen. Begin to engage your edges as you enter the fall line. Roll onto those edges slowly and gently. Stay flexed forward and keep riding those edges and your skis will begin to carve right back up the hill. Let that continue to happen until you come to a complete stop without doing anything else. Keep doing this over and over and over again. You're training yourself to be patient, to stay forward, to engage your edges and to finish each turn completely.

Yes it's boring, but it'll help you get to where you want to be quickly by engraining the very basics, and helping you to fall back on this movement pattern when you get scared.
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
@volklgirl Thank you! :smile: I am going to try this drill next time I'm on the slopes. Patience is definitly part of the essence of good turning! I do have to also be more patient with putting my form in place before I even start to go... forearms foreward, ankles bent, shoulders towards fall line...!!! I also do love it when I'm on a wide hill so that the faster skiers can zoom by me without getting too close. I'm excited to go to a bigger hill because of this reason. Smaller hills are great, but it gets too crowded.

We were really hoping to get out there this long weekend but it's raining here today. I'm watching the weather week by week now. :( Still waiting anxiously for the next time I get to go out there because that's when I will have my next instructed lesson. :race:
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hi Jo-ski,

Good on you for getting back into skiing! Remember that we are all working on technical goals, but the motivation is always to keep having fun while improving and forgetting about the bad turns, even if we try to learn from them.

A couple of thoughts that echo some of what has been said earlier. I focus a lot with my students on starting to pressure the outside ski in the turn early on in the C part of the turn. Think of it as a child proof medicine bottle cap under your outside ski foot. You can only keep turning the ski if you hare pushing down against the snow with it, from start to finish.

Another drill that can help is to ditch your poles and dribble an imaginary basketball with your outside hand throughout the entire turn. Do you end up dribbling on your foot or can you keep your elbows slightly bent and still still bounce the ball off the snow?

Do these drills on runs that are very very easy for you so you can focus on the movements.

Do you have a chance to upload a video of yourself skiing?

Another great drill is to practice side slipping. Lots of great videos on youtube from PSIA and other posters. No matter the level of skier I have we work on side slips and derivatives there of. Worth taking the time to perfect.

Best of luck! most of all have fun!
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
:smile: Hi all! I'm in the chalet waiting for the hubby to take his last run. Just wanted to report some progress after all your teaching here! I didn't get to be with an instructor today, like I wanted. So I decided to try all of the suggestions you ladies gave here. It's been a warm week, so today's conditions were grainy and icy. Lots of skidding. Eeeks... But I was determined.

I spent a good chunk of my time on the bunny hill, practicing my stance and keeping it consistent. The thing I was challenged with was to keep my stance the same all the way from top of the C to the bottom of the C. (C being the shape of a turn.) I did notice what @volklgirl recognized: I was 'standing up' as I changed edges at the middle of the C. It is very subtle but enough to make me lose control fast and really easily. So I practiced @snoWYmonkey 's suggested drill with turning one turn at a time and focused keeping my stance all the way through a turn. I totally perfected my turns on the bunny hill by the end of the night! I felt in control.

I went on familiar green runs inbetween my time doing bunny hill drills. At one point I was the only one on the bunny hill. Oh well... :becky:

I did wipe out a couple of times on the greens because it was icy and lumpy and there is a bit more to navigate with my drills that I wanted to perfect.

Near the end of the night, I did really get into the groove of things and really started to understand the mechanics of my body in different positions. One thing I found myself not doing enough or not doing automatically is to face the fall line no matter which way my legs are turning. Another thing I tried the second half of my night was to 'push the bush!' It really did engage more control in my lower half.

Another thing I noticed was that I was bending at my knees to get my ankles to bend forward. I realized this when I tried keeping my knees stiff and straight, and then just bent / leaned forward at the ankles. It was more of a tip forward bending when I bent forward at my ankles, which makes a big difference because then I'm not squatting in order to bend low. Squatting = no no, and sitting in my back seat! So this is where 'tits over tips' came in! That was definitely an aha moment. I also remembered the image of MJ leaning forward from few posts ago by @CrystalRose in the Ski Revelations thread to remind me of this. :smile:

smoothcriminal_0.png


And lastly, for a few runs, my husband came alongside me and let me know what I was doing wrong. This helped a lot. I wish I can see how and when I'm not bending forward or low enough. He is a beginner but has advanced faster than me. For the last few runs when I really began to feel in control, I felt my legs getting really tired. But not in just one place like my quads. Just my legs in general. Does that mean I'm using the right muscles and using them more strongly? I took it as a sign that I wasn't using the right muscles hard enough before and now that I am, I realize I need to be stronger, both in my core and in my legs. I think my husband advanced faster than me maybe because he's stronger in both.

I'm still anxious for my next lesson! But practicing does make me feel a bit more confident and happier. :smile:
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
:smile: Hi all! I'm in the chalet waiting for the hubby to take his last run. Just wanted to report some progress after all your teaching here! I didn't get to be with an instructor today, like I wanted. So I decided to try all of the suggestions you ladies gave here. It's been a warm week, so today's conditions were grainy and icy. Lots of skidding. Eeeks... But I was determined.

I spent a good chunk of my time on the bunny hill, practicing my stance and keeping it consistent. The thing I was challenged with was to keep my stance the same all the way from top of the C to the bottom of the C. (C being the shape of a turn.) I did notice what @volklgirl recognized: I was 'standing up' as I changed edges at the middle of the C. It is very subtle but enough to make me lose control fast and really easily. So I practiced @snoWYmonkey 's suggested drill with turning one turn at a time and focused keeping my stance all the way through a turn. I totally perfected my turns on the bunny hill by the end of the night! I felt in control.

I went on familiar green runs inbetween my time doing bunny hill drills. At one point I was the only one on the bunny hill. Oh well... :becky:

I did wipe out a couple of times on the greens because it was icy and lumpy and there is a bit more to navigate with my drills that I wanted to perfect.

Near the end of the night, I did really get into the groove of things and really started to understand the mechanics of my body in different positions. One thing I found myself not doing enough or not doing automatically is to face the fall line no matter which way my legs are turning. Another thing I tried the second half of my night was to 'push the bush!' It really did engage more control in my lower half.

Another thing I noticed was that I was bending at my knees to get my ankles to bend forward. I realized this when I tried keeping my knees stiff and straight, and then just bent / leaned forward at the ankles. It was more of a tip forward bending when I bent forward at my ankles, which makes a big difference because then I'm not squatting in order to bend low. Squatting = no no, and sitting in my back seat! So this is where 'tits over tips' came in! That was definitely an aha moment. I also remembered the image of MJ leaning forward from few posts ago by @CrystalRose in the Ski Revelations thread to remind me of this. :smile:

smoothcriminal_0.png


And lastly, for a few runs, my husband came alongside me and let me know what I was doing wrong. This helped a lot. I wish I can see how and when I'm not bending forward or low enough. He is a beginner but has advanced faster than me. For the last few runs when I really began to feel in control, I felt my legs getting really tired. But not in just one place like my quads. Just my legs in general. Does that mean I'm using the right muscles and using them more strongly? I took it as a sign that I wasn't using the right muscles hard enough before and now that I am, I realize I need to be stronger, both in my core and in my legs. I think my husband advanced faster than me maybe because he's stronger in both.

I'm still anxious for my next lesson! But practicing does make me feel a bit more confident and happier. :smile:


Awesome to hear about how you are progressing!!! One thing I can assure you is that skiing is not something that should ever make your legs (or any other body part) tired. Of course, while learning, it's possible to be generally too tense - not as relaxed as we should be. So that could be a reason for undue fatigue.

I do wonder what you mean when you talk about getting "low enough". In general we should be standing relatively tall, balanced comfortably over our feet with slight ankle knee and hip flexion. Think about shoulders being over your toes. I would also watch @Ursula's stance/posture video:

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/in...rrect-stance-posture.21193/page-3#post-332440

Be careful about "pushing the bush" - the pelvic tuck. We certainly do not want to over bend our knees and get squatty, with hips behind our heels. But trying to muscularly tuck the pelvis forward and hold it there can lead to all sorts of other problems. And it's tiring!!
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
@Skisailor Thank you! I'll try not to force the bush pushing. :becky: I understand that it's truly supposed to help to prevent the hips to be behind the heels. @Ursula 's video helped enlighten some things too!

The WEIGHT vs that PRESSURE is a big thing. I should definitely try to keep my body over my outside ski when I begin my turns. I think I'm leaning towards the hill and that's making me lean back too. I am guessing that that's why I'm not turning fast enough when I want to even if I am applying pressure on my outside ski. I think the 'keeping low' is part of me trying to put weight on my outside ski. But I think I'm not releasing the weight off my inside ski. Gah!

I do admire the skiers that I see, doing the nice smooth flowy linked turns. They look so relaxed and lightweight. That is where I'd love to be! So far off for now... but I will keep at it. My husband took a video of me on the bunny hill. I'll upload it and hopefully you ladies can critique.
 

va_deb

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hi @JO-ski! Just fwiw, I was having similar issues to you in terms of lack of control. And I have had multiple lessons over several seasons.

Game changer for me, which I actually need to post about, was finally getting the right boot for my kinda hard to fit feet.

My beginner/intermediate boots were a 24.5, intermediate boots were a 23.5 and my new intermediate/advanced boots are a 22.5. I also got custom footbeds.

Having smaller boots that actually fit my feet and give me control has been a night and day difference for me. (I need to change my signature!)

IMO having as little room in the toe box as possible without cramping your feet and having your boots as snug as possible in the last and as small as possible in the size without hurting your feet will give you more control.

If you don’t have custom footbeds yet, I highly recommend them. If your boots aren’t snug or get a little packed out you could look into aftermarket liners.

If I had had better fitting boots for my first 3 years of lessons and ski trips I would be a much better skier today. I just realized what skiing is supposed to be like on my December trip to Lake Tahoe, and I can’t wait to get there again.

If you need to prioritize boot tweaks vs. lessons, I would do custom footbeds first and get your boots as snug as possible so you can have better results when you have your lessons.

Others may disagree, and YMMV, but that’s what I would do if I were in your shoes / boots.

Good luck, and enjoy!
 

JO-ski

Certified Ski Diva
Thank you @va_deb ! You are so right. I don't have custom footbeds but I did get Superfeet insoles. The store helped me with the boot fit. I tried a boot on without the insoles and thought the boot was too small because my toes were totally jamming at the front of the boot. Then I put the Superfeet in and voila! The boot felt nice and snug.

The other thing I forgot to mention about yesterday... After several runs, I actually tightened my buckles. I have to totally remember to do that as my boots become more warm and flexed. That must of been part of my problem.
 

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