Help Needed: Crazy own heel to instep ratio?

[SquidWeaselYay]

By the way, this place was listed on zipfit's website as a zipfit dealer.

 

[SallyCat]

Hey @SquidWeaselYay I'm sorry for your frustration; I completely understand.

I do know that not all race boots are plugs, so you should be able to get an off-the-shelf narrow race boot. I met a guy on a chairlift who works with a race team and mentioned my boot issues and he strongly recommended Guenther's Ski Haus up near Elk Mountain. Said he had very narrow feet, too, and the boots he was in were fitted there and were 83mm lasts. I know that's not the most vetted recommendation, but Guenther's comes up frequently when looking for bootfitter recs.

I agree with @volklgirl: the ZipFits are made precisely to take up room in the heel/ankle area and they make a HUGE difference in fit. Sorry for the 4am craftsmanship here, but in the photo below, the masking tape outline shows the area occupied by the cork filler. You can also add filler to the tongue.

Even with the absolute narrowest boots I could find (Hawx Ultras) the ZipFits are the difference between a solid, close fit that locks my heel in place and total slop with the stock liners. I need a bit more filler because I still fiddle with my buckles more than I'd like to (I bought the Garas, the thinnest model ZipFit, so I've been plumping them up with extra cork) but I recently went back to the stock liner just to see what it felt like and it was horrible; just tons of space and my foot sliding everywhere.

Assuming he wasn't the guy who steered you away from ZipFits, I recommend seeing Marc Stewart at the Boot Lab at Windham, in their ski shop. He carries all the different models, so that you can try them with your boots to at least get a ballpark feel as to whether they might help you. He also carries Fisher boots, so he should be able to help you determine whether those would work for you.
Good luck!

 

[liquidfeet]

ZipFit makes different liners, all of them meant to fill the space between your foot and the shell with precision. Here's a list of the current types: https://www.zipfit.com/lineup

Here's an image of one of them.

The blue area around the midfoot and toes does NOT have any filling. That area won't fill space; it's just neoprene, as in a normal liner. The rest of the ZipFit does have the goo (called Omfit) in it, plus whole tongue is filled. Your bootfitter puts the filler in, and chooses how much your foot requires. When there's too much filler, it can be removed, although that's difficult.

My bootfitter put too much in when I was in the first boot I was planning on buying, then I changed to the other boots and he had to remove some of the filler. He said it was difficult to get it out, but he did it.

If you buy a boot with a too-wide shell in the ball-of-foot area, the ZipFit liner won't fill that part. Don't do that; you need no slop from side to side there when you tip your skis. If you have too much air above your instep or too much space around your narrow ankle and lower leg, the Omfit goo will fill it more precisely than the liner that comes with the boot.

 

[contesstant]

I was trying to google race plugs, ended up perusing epic and pugski. I know plugs have super thin liners and need a ton of work to fit correctly. Saw that a lot of people don't use them as an all mountain boot, so I'm curious what the advantage would be to going for a plug vs some foam injected liners in a stiff, low volume boot? I've never raced, so I have no idea what a race boot feels like on the snow. I prefer precision and a very snug fit, so not having a cushy feel isn't a problem at all for me. Does anybody have race plugs that you use all over the mountain? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

Sorry for all the questions. I think I realized that I have never had a boot that actually fits, and I want to arm myself with knowledge about options when I talk to boot fitters again. I want so badly to get it right with whatever boot setup I get next. My confidence plummeted over the past few weeks as my liners just completely compressed. I took a pretty serious wipeout Sunday when my foot slid about centimeter in my boot, screwing up my turn at a crucial moment on Upper Gunbarrel. Slid 30 feet on my face, flying off of moguls the whole way. Thank god for helmets, tiger balm and Advil! It really made me nervous though. I usually have controlled falls when I do fall, and that was NOT controlled at all. It was like my ski completely ignored my input. I'm afraid I'm going to get seriously hurt unless I fix my boot issue. I guess I should stick to the blues until then, slow down, and just cruise, but that is equally frustrating because I can do better and I like to push myself.

Ugh. Rant over.

Race boots don't need much work if you have low-low-low-volume feet to begin with, depending on the boot. (Meaning, they might need to plane the soles.) The only work I had done on mine was canting and cuff adjustments. I did have them softened, as the 110 flex was too much. Then, when I packed out the liners, (after adding layers and layers of foam and duct tape) I had the Boot Doc liners foamed for them. But oy, the forward lean and ramp angle created a whole new set of issues with my stance. I was in a JUNIOR race boot, so it had adult lugs, but also weighed about 10 pounds. (I kid you not. They are HEAVY.)

The Boot Doc COMFORT FOAM liners did not stiffen the boots up. There are other BD liners that might.

I keep trying to find a diagram of where the cork filler takes up volume, but can't seem to find one. I also need a lot of volume taken up all around (even in my 97mm last boot). I have 2 shims in, and I still have to crank the toe buckles more than I would like to. Would it help in the forefoot area, or still probably need the shims?

I'm starting to think that perhaps I need to go to a big resort area to get what I need in boots, but then I would only have a week at most to get the fit correct before going home. I don't know if it is just a matter of fitters around here taking the "I only have a hammer, so this must be a nail" approach, or what. But thanks for backing me up here, I really thought zipfits were basically made to take up space based on what I have read here and, well, everywhere.

I had shims with my Zipfits. As others said, they don't take up forefoot volume. That being said, don't be afraid to layer some duct tape on top of the liner or the sides of the liner to take up some volume on the top of the foot for now. Or, see a shop to get some foam to put on those places for the time being.

I feel for you, I really do!

 

[liquidfeet]

You can layer sticky-back velcro on the outside of your liners for now. But it at a cloth store in a wide roll. You can cut it to shape.

I use the soft half until I run out. I have used the stiff plastic half with the little loops, too.

The sticky back glue is good and will keep holding as you put the liners in and pull them out of the boots in the endless search for creating the perfect fit. If your velcro keeps getting pulled off as you do this, just wrap the liner with a nice layer of duct tape. Liners don't need to look pretty.

 

[liquidfeet]

Boot Doctor injection liners don't fill the ball-of-foot and toe box area either. It's still neoprene down there.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

You can layer sticky-back velcro on the outside of your liners for now. But it at a cloth store in a wide roll. You can cut it to shape.

I use the soft half until I run out. I have used the stiff plastic half with the little loops, too.

The sticky back glue is good and will keep holding as you put the liners in and pull them out of the boots in the endless search for creating the perfect fit. If your velcro keeps getting pulled off as you do this, just wrap the liner with a nice layer of duct tape. Liners don't need to look pretty.

The velcro idea is genius! Thanks!

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

But oy, the forward lean and ramp angle created a whole new set of issues with my stance. I was in a JUNIOR race boot, so it had adult lugs, but also weighed about 10 pounds. (I kid you not. They are HEAVY.)

Yeesh, I didn't realize how heavy they are. That sounds like a pain!

I was perusing old threads, and I'm starting to wonder if I ended up going with a boot that is too stiff for me with the Lange 110s. Is is possible that I ski better in a really stiff boot because it compensated for the fit issues? I really can't flex it forward unless I am charging on the mountain, and I tend to absorb terrain in my knees instead, so that is an indicator that it is too stiff, right? But whenever I take the bolts out (even just one bolt), I feel sloppy and like I don't have as much control. I'm wondering if I have relied on my boot stiffness too much, and my actual technique is garbage, thus why a softer boot feels difficult. Thoughts?

 

[contesstant]

Boot Doctor injection liners don't fill the ball-of-foot and toe box area either. It's still neoprene down there.

That's an area you don't want to have filled, anyway.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Wow, thanks for all the pics!!! Super helpful! I still can't believe I was told they are NOT for taking up volume.

At this point, I'm pretty sold on going to a different boot fitter. I am just not sure if I want to go to somebody in Killington when we go (end of March), or make a weekend trip to Windham before then. I think I need to start from ground zero. I'm completely confused at this point if I am even in the right shell flex. If the boot is too stiff, that may explain why the 163 Kenjas feel better than the shorter ones, even though I'm only 5" tall.

I wish they had a bootfitter service where the fitter will follow you around the slopes for a day, then tell you exactly what you need.

 

[volklgirl]

A good fitter can soften your shells somewhat. They may be able to remove a rear spoiler bolt, but if they can't, they can notch the lower shell to allow more flex. If the shape is correct, don't give up on them yet.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Just got back from my fitter. They took the shims out from under the liners and put them inside my liners, but under my orthotic. Also added some additional padding (on top of the padding already there) on the tongue to take up instep volume. It feels a bit better, but I won't really know if it is until I ski it tomorrow. I will report back when i do. Also, it's demo day tomorrow at roundtop, so hopefully I will have some reviews to share too!

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

A good fitter can soften your shells somewhat. They may be able to remove a rear spoiler bolt, but if they can't, they can notch the lower shell to allow more flex. If the shape is correct, don't give up on them yet.

Interestingly, I asked about the flex. I asked if overbuckling can make your boots harder to flex, and they said it can't. The one guy said taking the top bolt out makes it stiffer, but taking the bottom bolt out makes it softer. I have never heard this before, have you? I thought removing bolts makes it softer?

 

[liquidfeet]

I've always hear that taking one or both bolts out makes it softer. It makes no sense that removing one would make it stiffer. How on earth could that be?

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

I've always hear that taking one or both bolts out makes it softer. It makes no sense that removing one would make it stiffer. How on earth could that be?

Yeah.... Thinking maybe i need to go to a different place....

 

[mustski]

Yeesh, I didn't realize how heavy they are. That sounds like a pain!

I was perusing old threads, and I'm starting to wonder if I ended up going with a boot that is too stiff for me with the Lange 110s. Is is possible that I ski better in a really stiff boot because it compensated for the fit issues? I really can't flex it forward unless I am charging on the mountain, and I tend to absorb terrain in my knees instead, so that is an indicator that it is too stiff, right? But whenever I take the bolts out (even just one bolt), I feel sloppy and like I don't have as much control. I'm wondering if I have relied on my boot stiffness too much, and my actual technique is garbage, thus why a softer boot feels difficult. Thoughts?

If you are an aggressive skier and the weather is warmer, a softer boot can be a nightmare. I don’t think I’m THAT aggressive but during a ski boot experiment, I owned both Dalbello Kryznas and Chakras and experimented with the inserts which changed stiffness. The worst was the softest on the Chakra. The boots (a full size) smaller felt super sloppy, especially around the ankles. They were flexing sideways! I am 58 years old, 5’2”, and not an Amazon by any stretch. I also have borderline dorsiflexion. Too soft is bad; it makes the boot sloppy. As for speed... all skiing is easier fast than slow. That’s not a boot issue.

 

[contesstant]

I find it REALLY odd that they moved the shims inside the liner. This would put your heel out of the heel pocket of the liner, I would think, among other things.

 

[mustski]

My bootfitter put the shims on the bottom of the footbeds. That didn’t work well for me. Heel lifts under the liners also caused me problems. Both of them popped me out of the heel pocket.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Update (skied all day yesterday): I now have pain in my right foot around my sesamoid, and a partially numb left foot around my big toe that has not gone away. The new adjustments tightened things up...too much in the wrong places, I think. And I might lose my toenail on my left foot from the dam pressing down on the nail bed. I've had that happen before in my old boots, but because it went numb, I didn't notice it much while skiing.

Moving the shims back under the liner just took me back to the original swimming foot problem.

Out of complete frustration, I ordered Tecnica Mach 1 LV 85. Should be here next week. I'm going to take them to my fitter to see if they are a good match, if not, I can return them as long as I don't ski them.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

If you are an aggressive skier and the weather is warmer, a softer boot can be a nightmare. I don’t think I’m THAT aggressive but during a ski boot experiment, I owned both Dalbello Kryznas and Chakras and experimented with the inserts which changed stiffness. The worst was the softest on the Chakra. The boots (a full size) smaller felt super sloppy, especially around the ankles. They were flexing sideways! I am 58 years old, 5’2”, and not an Amazon by any stretch. I also have borderline dorsiflexion. Too soft is bad; it makes the boot sloppy. As for speed... all skiing is easier fast than slow. That’s not a boot issue.

I am starting to think I just seriously regressed back to being a sloppy intermediate. I don't know how, but it seems to be the case. Or maybe I never had the skills to begin with and somehow it is catching up to me. Maybe I have been blaming my boots when really it is a lack of skill on my part. The only time I felt like I was skiing as comfortably as last year was when i demo'ed 161 Santa Anas 93 yesterday. Easily my best runs of the season. Controlled, felt that "one with the ski" feeling, even with the boot giving me numb toes.

I just had a thought typing....I wonder if my delta is off? I always feel more balanced on demo bindings with their high stack height, whereas with my Attacks I feel like I constantly have to work for it. But I thought being more flat on the ski was supposed to be a good thing? I skied straight skis until I was 19, I wonder if I have to retrain myself for a lower binding.... I've been struggling to keep my balance more and more as my boots packed out. I know what good fore-aft balance feels like, and what the sweet spot feels like when you are in it, but I can't seem to stay there (increasingly difficult as boot fit issues intensified).

If I am being neurotic, please check me here. Three different boot fitters give me 3 different takes on it. My head is spinning.