Cheater Skis

[liquidfeet]

OK, what is a "cheater ski"?

This question refers to skis made for racing. I know a cheater ski is not a "race stock" ski. I know that race stock skis are hard to come by, and are only for the REAL racers, not the beer league, town league, club skiers.

But what I don't know is just what qualifies as a "cheater ski", and why it's called that. Is it any ski on the shelf of a shop that somehow in its promotional materials says it's a slalom or GS ski? Is it a ski with a vertical sidewall? Is it a sandwich construction ski? Is it a lesser version of good "race skis" for the beer leaguers? Is it anything they ski on that isn't "race stock"? Is it FIS approved? And what does that mean, any way? Why is it called "cheater"?

What, what, what is it?

Anyone here know?

 

[volklgirl]

The Race Geek to the rescue!

Race Room skis:
FIS GS compliant (turn radius of greater than 21 meters and 180cm
length minimum for men, 175cm for women)
Available to the elite racers only
Stiff, stiff, stiff! Often manufactured specifically for the racer

Race Stock skis:
FIS GS compliant (see above)
Availabe at 'race center' shops or by pro form
Still stiff - you don't want these unless you race - A lot!

Cheater skis:
Not FIS compliant (typically with a turning radius of 18-16 meters)
'GS' construction (stiff and stable but not as demanding as 'race'
skis, can be 'cap', torsion box or laminant)
Often known as a 'Supercross' ski - Originally designed
for 'Supercross' racers who need the stability and speed of GS
race skis as well as the manuverability of a SL ski.
Examples: Atomic SX series, Volkl GC Motion, Volkl Supersport
series, Nordica Speedmachine, Rossignol Zenith
Typically a great all-around ski for strong skiers who only ski fast -
they tend to be ornery at slower speeds

Is that way more info than you needed????

 

[SnowHot]

Liquidfeet, I know Kris. Trust her.

There may be other divas with knowledge in this area also, but Kris, in my experience is amazing about anything race/nastar related.

 

[liquidfeet]

VolklGirl,

Boy you gave me the info I wanted! Thanks.

AND, here are some more questions....I really want to know this stuff.

Can you give me the names of the race lines for Fischer, Dynastar, and any other companies that make "cheater" skis?

And then can you distinguish between the brands? Are there general things that can be said about the differences, say, between Volkl and Atomic?

 

[volklgirl]

Here's the cheater skis that I'm familiar with:

Volkl GC, Volkl Supersport (Allstar, 6*, 5*), Atomic SX, Dynastar Skier Cross, Nordica Speedmachine, Rossignol Zenith, Elan Ripstick. I know all the other companies make them too, I just don't know which models they are....Look in the Ski Gear Guides under AME Speed or Carver.

Here's my general impressions of brand feels (race/cheater models only):
Volkl: Lively, Powerful, Demanding yet easy
Atomic: Precise, Unforgiving, Powerful
Elan: Damp, Undemanding
Rossignol: Very Damp, Soft, 'Dead'
Volant: Smooth, Damp, Solid
Nordica: Powerful, Demanding, Stiff tail
Dynastar: Light, Lively, Snappy

Understand that these are just general brand feels and that each line and model will vary within the brand. I will be testing non-race skis this year and will post my impressions on those then.

 

[liquidfeet]

Thanks! That info is great help. Why I'm asking is that I am going to a ski swap two weeks from now locally, and if I see a great buy on used skis I might want to go ahead and buy them untested. I am a relatively new skier and only own one pair of skis(my only skis ever). I need to know all I can before wasting my money, so all this helps.

I am now racing in a beer league, whoops, this season in two leagues, using Volkl Women's "pink star" SuperSports I bought two years ago. They have a published turn radius of 12.5m. I may want to try a different ski in these gates, and if not in the gates then on the slopes while going REAL FAST. I know that these two wishes point to different skis, one with a similar short turn radius to my Volkls but more torsional stiffness, and one built for 16m-21m turns (maybe 18m for me...) Who knows what I'll find leaning against the wall for $100 ????

Your advice is going into my notes, which I'll take with me. Thanks again.

 

[volklgirl]

If you like you your Gamma's, you may be able to step up to the 5* or 6*. All of them have a similar turn radius (13-15is). The 5*/5S will be somewhat stiffer and more stable at speed and the 6*/Allstar will be much stiffer. The short turn radius on these skis means you can still crank short turns, but the stiffness means they are way more stable at speed. The true cheater ski for Volkl is the P60 GC Motion/Racetiger RC Motion. These are more race oriented than the Supersport series. They can be free skied but aren't anywhere near as versatile or as much fun and will require constant attention.

However, ski feel is a very personal thing. I've found that most people who really like the 'Volkl feel' are rarely happy on anything else. I would caution you on the Atomic race and cheater skis....they are incredibly demanding, work best at high speeds, and require constant attention. Ditto for the Fischers (I took one run on the RC4 World Cup - their precision and power scared the cr*p out of me :o )

 

[eng_ch]

Funny that.... Mr Eng tried the Fischers and the Head Supershapes and loved them both - Supershape won by a short head so to speak. I have the Fast Thang (ladies' equiv of the iSL) and was skiing on them last week and feared they might chuck me off and tell me I was stupid even to try and ski them - but I loved them and felt right at home. Yet I tried a pair of 5* last season and scared myself sh*tless. Mind you it turned out they were race tuned and there was only a 161 available (should prob have gone down a size) but I simply didn't have the bulk to bend the things, couldn't get them to turn at all. The AC3 I tried also left me cold. I guess it just shows just how personal ski choice is

 

[liquidfeet]

This is all SO helpful. Thanks all for spending your time offering answers. It's much more difficult to get clear info on gear from Epic - too many spoons in the pot over there. Plus, they make assumptions ....

So often people don't relate the ski's potential performance to the weight standing on top of it. They just refer to skill level. But I think the difference between a 125-140 lb person and a 160-200 lb person skiing the same exact ski is gonna be massive, assuming the skill level is the same.

I weigh 125-130. I ski at about level 7-8, and am told by people who've been skiing a very long time that I ski aggressively. It is my intention to move up the ladder in skills as fast as I can.

So now I have three more questions with this information in mind.
1. Does anyone think a much stiffer ski be appropriate for me this season, such as the Volkl 6*?
2. Some skis "require constant attention" - what does this mean?
3. How does length of ski relate to performance? I know length has an impact on turn radius with some manufacturers, but what about its impact on stability at speed? Ease of turn initiation? Weight of skier and ability to bend the ski? (Seems like a longer ski would be easier to bend -- think of bending a 1" x 2" length of wood that's 3 feet long vs one that's 10 feet long.)

Thanks again for all the input.

 

[eng_ch]

Liquidfeet, I think you've put your finger on an important point there with relative weights of skiers. I know on Epic (and to an extent Snowheads) the general thinkign is that weight plays into legnth more than your height does.... but with women we can be talking a 50% difference in weights! I was chatting to Spyderjon last week and he literally weighs 50% more than I do... and it also plays into ski width and float. Talkign to another Snowhead who's 30% heavier than me and maybe 4 " taller, we worked out that if he skis a 178? dynastar 8800 for his off piste/touring ski, then the equivalent dimensions for me would be aroun 161 with a 67-70 ish waist. So for all these fellas talking about their 100+ waisted skis - sth like the Scott Rosa at 86 would give most of us the same or more flotation.... Slightly OT here I know, but it's an interesting point that I think wouldn't occur to many men

 

[volklgirl]

I weigh 125-130. I ski at about level 7-8, and am told by people who've been skiing a very long time that I ski aggressively. It is my intention to move up the ladder in skills as fast as I can.

So now I have three more questions with this information in mind.
1. Does anyone think a much stiffer ski be appropriate for me this season, such as the Volkl 6*?
2. Some skis "require constant attention" - what does this mean?
3. How does length of ski relate to performance? I know length has an impact on turn radius with some manufacturers, but what about its impact on stability at speed? Ease of turn initiation? Weight of skier and ability to bend the ski? (Seems like a longer ski would be easier to bend -- think of bending a 1" x 2" length of wood that's 3 feet long vs one that's 10 feet long.)

Thanks again for all the input.

1. Yes, if you're racing or skiing very agressively.
2. It means that you need to be 'driving' the ski. A ski requiring constant attention will not respond to a 'sunday driver'. In the case of the race Atomics and the WC Fischers, you will be punished for technique errors.
3. Keep in mind I outweigh all of you by quite a bit (190-200lbs depending on season). I'm on a 6* in 161cm for just all around skiing...it's a truly versatile length for me. However, my race skis are 173 for the cheater, and 180 for the race stock. You analogy of a 2x4 is not quite appropriate in that the ski manufacturers not only shorten the ski, they typically soften it as they go shorter to account for the weight factor.
Longer = better at speeds and more stable but usually more difficult in shorter turns
Shorter = easier to initiate, easier to make shorter turns, but more squirrly at speeds

Also keep in mind these are all generalizations and will vary with manufacture, make, model, length, and skier. :D

 

[liquidfeet]

I think that just about covers it. All I need now is snow and time. And a deal staring at me from the corner of the room, or eBay, or wherever. What a resource this forum is....

 

[volklgirl]

One other thing...

Given your light weight, don't discount the Junior Racestock skis either. They'll have either cheater or FIS sidecuts with GS construction, but in a softer flex. My mom fell in love with the Fischer RC4 WC GS Junior in a 160 (I think). That's what she uses for Nastar - the rest of the time she's usually on her P60 SL Junior in a 150 or her 5* in 161.

 

[liquidfeet]

Two weeks ago I had in one hand a pair of Dynastar Jr Race skis, white sidewalls and all, GS in flavor, priced at $70; in the other hand my cell phone calling a skiing friend, PSIA II instructor, who said no way should I get any kind of junior race skis. So on his advice I'm not going there. BUT lots of sales guys at the sale said they'd work just fine for me. Sounds like the Fischers are great skis, with lots of punch.

Point: Deals are out there, and I'm ready! But I guess I'll stay away from the junior skis simply on the basis of trust.

 

[volklgirl]

Hmmm...

That's really interesting. Obviously I've never seen you ski, and I assume he has, so you're probably right to trust his judgement. I was just going by your stated weight and the experiences of other women I know.

Good Luck on your bargain hunting....Keep us updated on what you get and how you like 'em. We're all waiting with bated breath! :D

 

[liquidfeet]

I almost bought those skis, and the year before I almost bought a new pair of Jr skis. Who knows? It might have been in both instances a good idea. I sure don't know.

But thanks. I'll report back. But once skiing begins, will any of us have time to spend doing this typing at the computer?