Carving Ski VS All Mountain

[Magnatude]

Boot flex could be a factor in your fatigue levels. 110 can be quite resistant for a small, light woman. There is a balance between the right flex for your skis vs your weight/height etc. Hard to say. Common sense might say you need stiffer boots to drive stiff skis, but there are so many variables. Brand flex variation being just one of them.

 

[liquidfeet]

My carving has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of seasons and the Volkls certainly like to turn which I am really enjoying and I'm definitely doing shorter radius turns than I am used to doing, they have a 12m radius so very different from my previous ski's.
As far as I can tell there is no skidding and in regards to turn shape I tend to make medium turns then switch to short as I'm pulling into the load zone.

Im taking part in a 1 day performance clinic later in August so hopefully that will help with any technique issues that may be contributing.

When you make non-skidded turns on the Volkls, does it feel like you are bouncing on a diving board? In other words, do you feel the skis bending at apex, then unbending until the next apex?

If so, you are carving, and that's much harder work than you are used to given your description of how you've been skiing on the previous skis. You are now doing the equivalent of alotta leg presses.

This only counts if the skis are not skidding across the surface of the snow at apex, thus my question about the diving board sensation.

This kind of anaerobic work makes high demands on your heart. So you should be getting tired. You may be doing everything right and using the Volkls the way they were designed to be used .... which will wear anybody out. So your unexpected fatigue might not be caused by a technical deficiency but by a heavier than normal work load issue stemming from the excellent technique you are using to make lots of non-stop short radius carved turns. There are discussions going on over at SkiTalk about how long excellent skiers and racers who carve while free-skiing on their FIS slaloms can keep going before they wear out. Not long.

However, if you are feeling your knees complain, that might mean you are slightly back seat. Your upcoming clinic should be able to clarify some of this mystery.

 

[Skier31]

It would be great if you could post some video. Front/back and side view would be helpful.

Agree with LF that it could be that you are making more high performance turns. There is a reason that racers limit their time in the race course. It is demanding on the body.

Agree with LF that you may be slightly backseat from your description.

 

[AJM]

When you make non-skidded turns on the Volkls, does it feel like you are bouncing on a diving board? In other words, do you feel the skis bending at apex, then unbending until the next apex?

If so, you are carving, and that's much harder work than you are used to given your description of how you've been skiing on the previous skis. You are now doing the equivalent of alotta leg presses.

This only counts if the skis are not skidding across the surface of the snow at apex, thus my question about the diving board sensation.

This kind of anaerobic work makes high demands on your heart. So you should be getting tired. You may be doing everything right and using the Volkls the way they were designed to be used .... which will wear anybody out. So your unexpected fatigue might not be caused by a technical deficiency but by a heavier than normal work load issue stemming from the excellent technique you are using to make lots of non-stop short radius carved turns. There are discussions going on over at SkiTalk about how long excellent skiers and racers who carve while free-skiing on their FIS slaloms can keep going before they wear out. Not long.

However, if you are feeling your knees complain, that might mean you are slightly back seat. Your upcoming clinic should be able to clarify some of this mystery.

Thanks so much @liquidfeet, whilst I certainly wouldnt say I'm pulling any high angle carves and I for sure dont have excellent technique I'm attempting to use the ski's as they are intended, whether I'm successful or not is debateable ... haha
Interesting what you say about the heart as well, as I do tend to pull up into the load zone after a run a lot more out of breath and can feel my heart a lot more than previous seasons when I bobbled down the run on my All Mtns.

I'll be checking to see if I can feel the diving board analogy next time I'm out.

Its definitely something I'll be bringing up with Andy on the clinic if not before. x

 

[AJM]

It would be great if you could post some video. Front/back and side view would be helpful.

Agree with LF that it could be that you are making more high performance turns. There is a reason that racers limit their time in the race course. It is demanding on the body.

Agree with LF that you may be slightly backseat from your description.

Everytime I try to get DH to video it ends in disaster but hopefully I'll be able to get some when I do the clinic.

I havent been told Im backseat but maybe I am a little which brings me back to my thoughts a few posts back about the stiffness of my boots vs my size and weight.
Its a foul day here today so I might spend some time wrestling with the bolts on them to see if that makes a difference next time I'm out which should be either Fri or Sat or maybe both .... if I have the stamina

 

[liquidfeet]

Everytime I try to get DH to video it ends in disaster but hopefully I'll be able to get some when I do the clinic.

I havent been told Im backseat but maybe I am a little which brings me back to my thoughts a few posts back about the stiffness of my boots vs my size and weight.
Its a foul day here today so I might spend some time wrestling with the bolts on them to see if that makes a difference next time I'm out which should be either Fri or Sat or maybe both .... if I have the stamina

About that boot flex issue.....

--Are you conscious of what you are doing with your ankles as you ski?
--Do you keep your ankles flexed forward all the time when you ski? The point of doing this is to keep your entire body forward, and to keep the lower leg tilted forward all the time inside the boot.
--Do you flex your ankles forward, then open them up, then flex them, then open them up as you make your turns? Fancy terms: dorsiflex, plantarflex, dorsiflex, plantarflex....
--Can you feel your shins against the tongues all the time, or just on and off? "Against the tongues" means staying in contact with them, not necessarily forcefully pressing into them. Yes is a good answer. That means your lower legs are tilted forward. If they are tilted forward, then when you are at apex the forces of the turn will press your shins more forcefully into the tongues. You don't have to do that pressing; physics does it. That's when the boot cuff may flex forward, or not. If the boot does not flex forward at that point, it won't put you in the back seat because your shin-tilt will still be tilted forward; it will stay the same and simply press harder into an un-giving tongue. That pressing will be transferred unaltered to the tips of your skis. Nothing wrong with that as long as your boots fit properly so they don't give you shin-bang.

--Conclusion about boot flex: Lack of boot flex does not, IMO, impact the skier's ability to stay forward. The major factor in back seat skiing is what the skier does with the ankles inside the boots.

 

[AJM]

Good Morning from NZ @liquidfeet

I'm super concious of what my ankles are doing and I tend to dorsiflex, plantarflex ...... I picked that up a few seasons ago and what a game changer it was !!
I also keep my shins in contact with the front of the boot at all times as well and as I mentioned, I've never been told I'm backseat and I'm sure Andy wouldve pointed it out to me if I was.

You don't have to do that pressing; physics does it.

Okaaaay, I did not know that and here I am trying to give it some extra oooomph at the apex , so theoretically the stiffer the boot the less "effort" as long as my weight is forward and I'm dorsiflexing at that point?

I moved the bolts yesterday on my boots to try and soften them a touch and see if that helps but from what I read into your response that might not be necessary.
I'll leave them as is for now, I'm heading out tomorrow and will report back, I've got visions of me hating the softer flex and sitting in the back of the car wrestling the bolts back to their original position

Its dawning on me as I join the dots throughout this thread that perhaps @Jilly is right and that I might be fighting the ski esp when I take into account your comment about physics taking care of the pressure.

 

[elemmac]

@AJM - What size Flair are you on? Just curious, as that should be taken into account with your size (height/weight), for how demanding a ski will be.

 

[liquidfeet]

I might be fighting the ski esp when I take into account your comment about physics taking care of the pressure.

Here you go on that hot button topic "pressure." This is Deb Armstrong interviewing Jonathan Ballou. He discusses muscular effort differences between skiing wide skis and narrow carving skis. Also he talks about receiving pressure, not generating it. He also says not to push oneself in, and not to push on the outside ski. These are the golden nuggets in this discussion.

 

[AJM]

@AJM - What size Flair are you on? Just curious, as that should be taken into account with your size (height/weight), for how demanding a ski will be.

They're 155cm, Im 165cm and 50kg (sometimes just under).
In my mind they are super easy to ski but my body say's otherwise

 

[elemmac]

They're 155cm, Im 165cm and 50kg (sometimes just under).
In my mind they are super easy to ski but my body say's otherwise

Figured I'd ask, just in case you were on a larger size, but that should be a good length in that ski for you

Back to the regularly scheduled program...

 

[AJM]

Here you go on that hot button topic "pressure." This is Deb Armstrong interviewing Jonathan Ballou. He discusses muscular effort differences between skiing wide skis and narrow carving skis. Also he talks about receiving pressure, not generating it. He also says not to push oneself in, and not to push on the outside ski. These are the golden nuggets in this discussion.

And there we have it !! Absolute GOLD
I'll be watching this over and over again

 

[liquidfeet]

I moved the bolts yesterday on my boots to try and soften them a touch and see if that helps but from what I read into your response that might not be necessary.
I'll leave them as is for now, I'm heading out tomorrow and will report back, I've got visions of me hating the softer flex and sitting in the back of the car wrestling the bolts back to their original position

Here's another short video on boot flex. This is Reilly McGlashan. He's an elite skier who explains why one might want a stiffer boot, rather than a softer one. He skis very aggressively, and with enviable skill.

He suggests that a skier should not shy away from buying a stiffer than expected boot. He mentions that some skiers do find themselves skiing back-seat when they are in stiff boots, but explains that the boot is not causing this. The boot does not "push" them into the back seat. He says these skiers will find the stiffness of the tongue-shin contact to be intimidating. So they pull their shins back from that contact and this immediately puts them in the back seat. If they kept their shin-tongue contact, they would not be skiing backseat.

He explains the benefits offered by a stiffer flex boot, and he lists what kind of snow situations are best skied with a stiffer boot. He also notes when one might want a softer boot, and how to temporarily alter a stiffer boot for those situations. It is important to know that a stiff boot can be temporarily made softer, but a soft boot cannot be made stiffer.

He is talking to an audience of technically ambitious skiers, and you @AJM sound like you are one of those. But given the flex numbers he discusses at the end, I think he assumes he's talking to technically ambitious skiers who want to ski aggressively all day. Not many ambitious intermediate and advanced skiers are ever going to want boots with a 150 flex, whether female or male, petite or big. Most skiers won't even want 130, but it works for some ... and 110 definitely is fine.

Implied in what he says is that skiing boots with flex numbers below that probably will limit the skier's ability to vary their control over their turns as they climb the skill ladder.

 

[AJM]

Here's another short video on boot flex. This is Reilly McGlashan. He's an elite skier who explains why one might want a stiffer boot, rather than a softer one. He skis very aggressively, and with enviable skill.

He suggests that a skier should not shy away from buying a stiffer than expected boot. He mentions that some skiers do find themselves skiing back-seat when they are in stiff boots, but explains that the boot is not causing this. The boot does not "push" them into the back seat. He says these skiers will find the stiffness of the tongue-shin contact to be intimidating. So they pull their shins back from that contact and this immediately puts them in the back seat. If they kept their shin-tongue contact, they would not be skiing backseat.

He explains the benefits offered by a stiffer flex boot, and he lists what kind of snow situations are best skied with a stiffer boot. He also notes when one might want a softer boot, and how to temporarily alter a stiffer boot for those situations. It is important to know that a stiff boot can be temporarily made softer, but a soft boot cannot be made stiffer.

He is talking to an audience of technically ambitious skiers, and you @AJM sound like you are one of those. But given the flex numbers he discusses at the end, I think he assumes he's talking to technically ambitious skiers who want to ski aggressively all day. Not many ambitious intermediate and advanced skiers are ever going to want boots with a 150 flex, whether female or male, petite or big. Most skiers won't even want 130, but it works for some ... and 110 definitely is fine.

Implied in what he says is that skiing boots with flex numbers below that probably will limit the skier's ability to vary their control over their turns as they climb the skill ladder.

Could you link the video as I'd love to watch it.
I think Reilly comes here for the Rookie camps down at Treble Cone.

My son who's a patroller just popped in said "Mum put the bolts back, you'll HATE them softer"
I also feel I have better control when they're stiffer but thought I'd give it a go just to see if relieved some of the fatigue , I guess I'm going to be bolt wrangling again this afternoon !!

 

[Jilly]

I think Reilly does the YES rookie camp. I'm going to message my friends son who is down under for our summer. He's a CSIA L4, nearly newly minted. I'll find out if he's teaching and where.

And I'd have to agree with your son. Stiffer is better for carving.

Can you get a video? Maybe your son as the camera operator? I see things in the still photo, but I would love to see everything in motion.

 

[AJM]

I think Reilly does the YES rookie camp. I'm going to message my friends son who is down under for our summer. He's a CSIA L4, nearly newly minted. I'll find out if he's teaching and where.

And I'd have to agree with your son. Stiffer is better for carving.

Can you get a video? Maybe your son as the camera operator? I see things in the still photo, but I would love to see everything in motion.

I wont be able to get my son to video as he was just paying a flying visit, I'm hoping to get some footage at the end of the month when I do my 1 day clinic so stay tuned.
In the meantime I'll be heading back out tomorrow.
I do know I have a tendency to rush the top of my turns and its something I'm working on but perhaps that has something to do with it as well ?
I see things in the still photo as well but i'm ignoring them at the moment

 

[liquidfeet]

Here's another short video on boot flex. This is Reilly McGlashan. He's an elite skier who explains why one might want a stiffer boot, rather than a softer one. He skis very aggressively, and with enviable skill.

He suggests that a skier should not shy away from buying a stiffer than expected boot. He mentions that some skiers do find themselves skiing back-seat when they are in stiff boots, but explains that the boot is not causing this. The boot does not "push" them into the back seat. He says these skiers will find the stiffness of the tongue-shin contact to be intimidating. So they pull their shins back from that contact and this immediately puts them in the back seat. If they kept their shin-tongue contact, they would not be skiing backseat.

He explains the benefits offered by a stiffer flex boot, and he lists what kind of snow situations are best skied with a stiffer boot. He also notes when one might want a softer boot, and how to temporarily alter a stiffer boot for those situations. It is important to know that a stiff boot can be temporarily made softer, but a soft boot cannot be made stiffer.

He is talking to an audience of technically ambitious skiers, and you @AJM sound like you are one of those. But given the flex numbers he discusses at the end, I think he assumes he's talking to technically ambitious skiers who want to ski aggressively all day. Not many ambitious intermediate and advanced skiers are ever going to want boots with a 150 flex, whether female or male, petite or big. Most skiers won't even want 130, but it works for some ... and 110 definitely is fine.

Implied in what he says is that skiing boots with flex numbers below that probably will limit the skier's ability to vary their control over their turns as they climb the skill ladder.

Whoops. Forgot to provide the link. Here it is.

 

[Leslie Hall]

Ok gals after having an accident back in 2022 I went from my beloved Sheeva 9's and down to a K2 Mindbender 85 to try and make my return to skiing easier ... which it did and I loved them, not as much as the Sheeva's but they were pretty darn fun to ski on.
Fast forward to last year and I ended up buying a second hand pair of 2018 Volkl Flair SC e's (72 underfoot) for a course that never eventuated due to lack of snow and with this year being a super lean start here in NZ I've been spending all my time on them and absolutely love them, perfect for the conditions we've got at the moment however I can only do around 3 runs on them before I run out of gas and have to take a break.
Is it because I've spent the last decade or so on relatively soft smeary ski's and am now having to up my game to ski the Volkl's ? Please say yes as I'm fitter than I've ever been, walking 30+ kilometers a week along with between 700 - 1000m vertical hill work and I'd love to be able to blame my gear and not me

Hi AJM,
It’s an entirely different type of ski. I have a pair of them 79 underfoot. I spent a week out West with them and I am an eastern skier in the states. The movement patter is a bit different on a narrower ski. I’m an instructor of 45 years and a race coach, movement is my game. The ski requires early turn initiation and a bit more lateral movement with your legs. If I could see you ski I’m confident that we could straighten you out. Take a private lesson if you can, should make you feel much better.

 

[Jilly]

@Leslie Hall - AJM is taking a clinic at the end of the month. She has figured out that she is in the back seat. So craving skis don't like that at all.

 

[AJM]

A quick update .... had a great day yesterday on the Flairs, fantastic groomer runs followed by some chalky off piste sessions.
I hadnt been on them for the last week or so as we had some semblance of powder so it was fun to jump on them again and I felt nowhere near as tired as I did when skiing them earlier in the season.
When I pulled out the Mindbenders after lunch as things started to get a bit softer they felt for lack of a better word "Dozy" compared to the Flairs and I do have a confession to make ..... I did end up moving the bolts on my boots just to soften them a bit with great results and I also had some J bars put around the ankles on the boot liners as after almost 3 seasons in them and with losing around 5kgs in weight things were starting to feel a little "airy" around my ankles so I'll probably be looking at after market liners next season.
Anyways I've got my clinic coming up in just over a week so I'll report back on how that goes .... can't wait !!