Carving Ski VS All Mountain

[AJM]

Ok gals after having an accident back in 2022 I went from my beloved Sheeva 9's and down to a K2 Mindbender 85 to try and make my return to skiing easier ... which it did and I loved them, not as much as the Sheeva's but they were pretty darn fun to ski on.
Fast forward to last year and I ended up buying a second hand pair of 2018 Volkl Flair SC e's (72 underfoot) for a course that never eventuated due to lack of snow and with this year being a super lean start here in NZ I've been spending all my time on them and absolutely love them, perfect for the conditions we've got at the moment however I can only do around 3 runs on them before I run out of gas and have to take a break.
Is it because I've spent the last decade or so on relatively soft smeary ski's and am now having to up my game to ski the Volkl's ? Please say yes as I'm fitter than I've ever been, walking 30+ kilometers a week along with between 700 - 1000m vertical hill work and I'd love to be able to blame my gear and not me

 

[liquidfeet]

Reasons people get exhausted on skis:

--Fighting the snow (scraping the skis across the surface with a notable braking effect)
--Under-utilizing the skis (skiing back seat, effectively doing wall-sits non-stop, and losing the usefulness of the front half of the skis)
--Making non-stop arc-to-arc turns (carving, no skidding) at speed (effectively doing leg presses with high resistance over and over: carving is tiring)
--Poor stance (exhaustion from failure to "stack" the body)
--Fitness issues: low stamina/endurance; heart just can't keep up with the demand

The Volkls may have more torsional stiffness than your other skis, and they may have a shorter turn radius. This means if you are skiing on hard snow and tip them even a little, the tip and tail will want to grab. The skis are designed to follow a curved path determined by the bend in the skis as the tip and tail grab and the waist moves outward. You may be used to skidding across the surface of the snow with flattish skis. Are you? If you try skiing these Volkls flat (ish), pointing them in the direction you want to go, and skidding along, then you may find that doing this while their ends are grabbing the snow will produce more braking action than before. Thus you'll experience more exhausting load on your legs and you'll get tired. You may be able to feel this extra braking if that's what's going on.

So it may be a technique issue. Your current technique may not match the Volkl's way of performing. This is a WILD guess.

--Do you typically tip your skis up on edge? If yes, how do you do this? Do you tip just your feet, or your lower legs, or your whole legs, or your whole body shoulders included? If you want to tip them higher as the turn progresses, how do you accomplish that?
--Do you point them in the direction you want them to go? If you do, how do you do this? Do you point just your feet? Or your whole legs, knees included? Or do you point your torso too, including hips and shoulders?
--Do you like to make super short turns straight down the fall line sometimes? Or do you usually make medium turns that take up a sizeable lane of trail width? Do you switch back and forth?
--How's your bump skiing?

I'm asking because your answers may give a clue as to whether you might benefit from acquiring some new ways of managing those Volkls.

 

[Jilly]

All of what LF states above!

The Flairs vs either of the other 2 are most likely stiffer, as LF mentions. You're not used to bending a stiffer ski.

After that it's technique. I've got to find where my friends son is teaching down there.

 

[VickiK]

Great to read you love your Flairs! I haven't heard much about them.

 

[AJM]

Reasons people get exhausted on skis:

--Fighting the snow (scraping the skis across the surface with a notable braking effect)
--Under-utilizing the skis (skiing back seat, effectively doing wall-sits non-stop, and losing the usefulness of the front half of the skis)
--Making non-stop arc-to-arc turns (carving, no skidding) at speed (effectively doing leg presses with high resistance over and over: carving is tiring)
--Poor stance (exhaustion from failure to "stack" the body)
--Fitness issues: low stamina/endurance; heart just can't keep up with the demand

The Volkls may have more torsional stiffness than your other skis, and they may have a shorter turn radius. This means if you are skiing on hard snow and tip them even a little, the tip and tail will want to grab. The skis are designed to follow a curved path determined by the bend in the skis as the tip and tail grab and the waist moves outward. You may be used to skidding across the surface of the snow with flattish skis. Are you? If you try skiing these Volkls flat (ish), pointing them in the direction you want to go, and skidding along, then you may find that doing this while their ends are grabbing the snow will produce more braking action than before. Thus you'll experience more exhausting load on your legs and you'll get tired. You may be able to feel this extra braking if that's what's going on.

So it may be a technique issue. Your current technique may not match the Volkl's way of performing. This is a WILD guess.

--Do you typically tip your skis up on edge? If yes, how do you do this? Do you tip just your feet, or your lower legs, or your whole legs, or your whole body shoulders included? If you want to tip them higher as the turn progresses, how do you accomplish that?
--Do you point them in the direction you want them to go? If you do, how do you do this? Do you point just your feet? Or your whole legs, knees included? Or do you point your torso too, including hips and shoulders?
--Do you like to make super short turns straight down the fall line sometimes? Or do you usually make medium turns that take up a sizeable lane of trail width? Do you switch back and forth?
--How's your bump skiing?

I'm asking because your answers may give a clue as to whether you might benefit from acquiring some new ways of managing those Volkl

Thanks once again @liquidfeet
My carving has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of seasons and the Volkls certainly like to turn which I am really enjoying and I'm definitely doing shorter radius turns than I am used to doing, they have a 12m radius so very different from my previous ski's.
As far as I can tell there is no skidding and in regards to turn shape I tend to make medium turns then switch to short as I'm pulling into the load zone.

Im taking part in a 1 day performance clinic later in August so hopefully that will help with any technique issues that may be contributing.

It does make sense in my mind that the Volkls are going to take a bit more managing than my previous ski's. x

 

[AJM]

All of what LF states above!

The Flairs vs either of the other 2 are most likely stiffer, as LF mentions. You're not used to bending a stiffer ski.

After that it's technique. I've got to find where my friends son is teaching down there

They are certainly very different to ski than my previous ski's thats for sure but they are a ton of fun esp on the snow conditions we've currently got !

 

[AJM]

Great to read you love your Flairs! I haven't heard much about them.

I got them at end of our last season for a clinic/camp I was supposed to do that never eventuated.
They're an older model (2018) and were second hand but in great almost new condition so I grabbed them !!

 

[AJM]

Sorry @liquidfeet I got called away so to answer your other questions -
To turn, I tend to start at my feet then follow through my ankles and then hopefully my knee's follow.

I'm conciously lightening my inside leg ..or trying to.

Flexing into to turn to aid with steering.

Trying to keep my shoulders square and not letting my inside drop.

Note that this is what I 'TRY" to do, whether or not I'm succesfull is a differrent story

Here's a pic taken last week that may or may not give you an idea.

 

[AJM]

@RachelV does this need to be moved to the Ski Tips section ? x

 

[scandium]

Having skied all of the above skis at some point, I do think the Volkls demand more skiier input for turns compared to the Sheevas and Mindbenders but it sounds like there may be more to it? I know you are very fit from hiking but are you actually using the same muscles in the same way when you are skiing? I ask because I find running/walking/cycling fitness does NOT at all seem to translate to ski fitness and leg endurance in the same way that targeted plyometric, balance and strength work seems to do for me, and if you still have some post injury weakness plus aren't ever using those muscles in the exact way you would when skiing....

Based on my own experience with the Volkl Flair SC E, I definitely find slushy snow can be a 3 runs and done zone for me, but I think that if you are sticking to the Porters groomers it shouldn't be that much effort with medium turns! In my lesson today I was working on short turns with separation and that for SURE is harder even on easier slopes (I now have the Racetiger SC E from the same year which is basically the same ski/different topsheet) but I have skiied many groomer laps on them without significant discomfort or feeling like I have to really work them overly for the turn.

 

[AJM]

Having skied all of the above skis at some point, I do think the Volkls demand more skiier input for turns compared to the Sheevas and Mindbenders but it sounds like there may be more to it? I know you are very fit from hiking but are you actually using the same muscles in the same way when you are skiing? I ask because I find running/walking/cycling fitness does NOT at all seem to translate to ski fitness and leg endurance in the same way that targeted plyometric, balance and strength work seems to do for me, and if you still have some post injury weakness plus aren't ever using those muscles in the exact way you would when skiing....

Based on my own experience with the Volkl Flair SC E, I definitely find slushy snow can be a 3 runs and done zone for me, but I think that if you are sticking to the Porters groomers it shouldn't be that much effort with medium turns! In my lesson today I was working on short turns with separation and that for SURE is harder even on easier slopes (I now have the Racetiger SC E from the same year which is basically the same ski/different topsheet) but I have skiied many groomer laps on them without significant discomfort or feeling like I have to really work them overly for the turn.

They definitely require more input thats for sure and there is definitely some post injury issues esp in my knees, believe it or not but I've gone and injured my shoulder now, slipped sideways while hiking and left my arm behind (of course I did ) so I'm back at the physio yet again .... I might mention it to her and see what she suggests.

So far I havent had the pleasure of skiing slushy snow .... its been pretty bulletproof but all eyes are on Thursdays storm.

I'm also hoping that my upcoming clinic will iron out any technique issues that may be causing it.

I really think its down to the fact that as you said they require more input and I'm not used it, I'm used to a nice soft friendly smooooshy ski but I love the way they ski so much that I really want to get on top of it.

 

[Magnatude]

I think you just need to spend more time skiing them, and getting used to them, after the skis you found easy to ski. Skis, boots, they all take time to adjust to. I'm pretty sure I saw you skiing a week ago (in very challenging conditions, I might add) and you have good technique. You disappeared before I could say hi. The Volkls will challenge your technique, but also reward it. If you feel up to it, it's worth sticking with them through better/softer/fresher snow (they will feel less tiring as you adapt to them).

 

[AJM]

I think you just need to spend more time skiing them, and getting used to them, after the skis you found easy to ski. Skis, boots, they all take time to adjust to. I'm pretty sure I saw you skiing a week ago (in very challenging conditions, I might add) and you have good technique. You disappeared before I could say hi. The Volkls will challenge your technique, but also reward it. If you feel up to it, it's worth sticking with them through better/softer/fresher snow (they will feel less tiring as you adapt to them).

Thanks so much for the vote of confidence !
I really want to stick with them as I enjoy them so much.
Hopefully we can connect at some stage, I'll be the one trying to make friends with a second hand pair of Volkl's !!

 

[brooksnow]

As usual a very comprehensive analysis from @liquidfeet. The past couple seasons I've binged reading her posts to get my head back around coaching verbiage and approach. Thanks, @liquidfeet!

I can only do around 3 runs on them before I run out of gas and have to take a break.

Are you tired overall or is there a specific set of muscles that start yelling at you that they're done?

 

[Gildabear]

Reasons people get exhausted on skis:

--Fighting the snow (scraping the skis across the surface with a notable braking effect)
--Under-utilizing the skis (skiing back seat, effectively doing wall-sits non-stop, and losing the usefulness of the front half of the skis)
--Making non-stop arc-to-arc turns (carving, no skidding) at speed (effectively doing leg presses with high resistance over and over: carving is tiring)
--Poor stance (exhaustion from failure to "stack" the body)
--Fitness issues: low stamina/endurance; heart just can't keep up with the demand

The Volkls may have more torsional stiffness than your other skis, and they may have a shorter turn radius. This means if you are skiing on hard snow and tip them even a little, the tip and tail will want to grab. The skis are designed to follow a curved path determined by the bend in the skis as the tip and tail grab and the waist moves outward. You may be used to skidding across the surface of the snow with flattish skis. Are you? If you try skiing these Volkls flat (ish), pointing them in the direction you want to go, and skidding along, then you may find that doing this while their ends are grabbing the snow will produce more braking action than before. Thus you'll experience more exhausting load on your legs and you'll get tired. You may be able to feel this extra braking if that's what's going on.

So it may be a technique issue. Your current technique may not match the Volkl's way of performing. This is a WILD guess.

--Do you typically tip your skis up on edge? If yes, how do you do this? Do you tip just your feet, or your lower legs, or your whole legs, or your whole body shoulders included? If you want to tip them higher as the turn progresses, how do you accomplish that?
--Do you point them in the direction you want them to go? If you do, how do you do this? Do you point just your feet? Or your whole legs, knees included? Or do you point your torso too, including hips and shoulders?
--Do you like to make super short turns straight down the fall line sometimes? Or do you usually make medium turns that take up a sizeable lane of trail width? Do you switch back and forth?
--How's your bump skiing?

I'm asking because your answers may give a clue as to whether you might benefit from acquiring some new ways of managing those Volkls.

Thanks for this great info. Can’t wait to try it out

 

[AJM]

As usual a very comprehensive analysis from @liquidfeet. The past couple seasons I've binged reading her posts to get my head back around coaching verbiage and approach. Thanks, @liquidfeet!


Are you tired overall or is there a specific set of muscles that start yelling at you that they're done?

Its a combination of both, my knees start to scream which is a left over from my injuries but also a general feeling of tired overall just to add into the mix. My quads etc are fine.
Give me a hill to climb and I've got the stamina of an Ox but put me on a ski slope and Im 3 runs then out.
If we get some fresh snow this week I might bust out the Mindbenders and see if I get a similar result ... if I do then I really do have an issue.
I am thinking that @Magnatude is on to it and that I'm having to work just that little bit harder at this stage on the Volkls
I might add that I am a bit of a lightweight as well 50kg if I'm lucky.

 

[Jilly]

And you could be "fighting" the skis. You're not used to the stiffness or the fact they go on edge so quick. Your experiment is worth a try. But take the Flairs too.

 

[AJM]

And you could be "fighting" the skis. You're not used to the stiffness or the fact they go on edge so quick. Your experiment is worth a try. But take the Flairs too.

They'll definitly be coming along !!
I do wonder if my boot flex might have something to do with it as well, when I'm on my Mindbenders I dont have to work them so hard and can pretty much get away with skiing in a less athletic position whereas the Flairs want me to be on point ???
Atomic Redster Sti 110 with the ability to move the bolts and potentially soften the flex a little bit.

 

[scandium]

Its a combination of both, my knees start to scream which is a left over from my injuries but also a general feeling of tired overall just to add into the mix. My quads etc are fine.
Give me a hill to climb and I've got the stamina of an Ox but put me on a ski slope and Im 3 runs then out.
If we get some fresh snow this week I might bust out the Mindbenders and see if I get a similar result ... if I do then I really do have an issue.
I am thinking that @Magnatude is on to it and that I'm having to work just that little bit harder at this stage on the Volkls
I might add that I am a bit of a lightweight as well 50kg if I'm lucky.

Wonder if the weight loss has also made it slightly more difficult? I did ski them at around the 50-52kg mark but post increase to 55kg + going shorter have definitely found it easier to flex them.

 

[AJM]

Wonder if the weight loss has also made it slightly more difficult? I did ski them at around the 50-52kg mark but post increase to 55kg + going shorter have definitely found it easier to flex them.

Potentially for sure, the crazy thing is I found them so easy to ski right from the get go so its not like I feel they are too much ski for me ... maybe I need to eat more