Carving question

[tinymoose]

Ok, so after my first full night out for the season, I think I'm only getting my downhill ski on edge in my turns. So basically I'm turning with just my downhill ski and the uphill ski is just kinda along for the ride. I'm sure an instructor will have all kinda of advice for my skiing (hopefully next week!), but does anyone have advice on what causes this? Is this just a practice makes perfect thing? I did have some alignment work done on my boots, so it shouldn't be that. It's my understanding that both skis should be on edge, correct?

Sorry for all of my incorrect ski lingo and descriptions. I'm sure lessons will help with that too. :p

 

[Skise]

That's what I was doing when an instructor told me I'm not skiing so bad that I need to loose any sleep over it.

Basicly I was told to get my inside ski on edge :D One drill was to start with both of my knees bent out so I was sure to get the inside ski on edge. Kind of a quick fix because somehow it's all connected to my body position and movement during the turn...

 

[Jilly]

Edge angles on both skis should match in a perfect world! If your uphill skis isn't edging (or craving) then you have an A frame.

So work on matching both skis together.
1. Using just the bottom 1/2 of the turn, starting in the fall line in a slight wedge, so the downhill ski is on edge. Slide down, match the uphill ski to the downhill, you'll start turning. Make the uphill ski edge angle match the downhill.
2. Place your poles behind both knees, hands on the outside of your knees. Ski a gentle slope slowly. This will make your knees and subsequently the rest of your lower body line up. Head up though - don't hit anybody.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Not edging or not able to pressure?

Are you going based on feel, meaning that you feel as though you are only standing on outside ski, or do you feel as though one is flat and the other on edge? Have you actually looked behind at the tracks you leave and checked to see what type of tracks you are leaving? Is one track a flat ski and one track more knife like?

Also make sure you look from start to finish of your turn. It is easier to refer to inside and outside ski as they remain the same through the whole turn rather than up hill and down hill as that relationship changes midway.

Whether you are dealing with a true edging issue is a somewhat different fix from a balancing/pressure issue, though of course they are all interconnected!

 

[tinymoose]

I'm going entirely off feel, and I'm not sure how good I am at assessing what I'm actually feeling. Since we usually ski later in the day/evening, I've never been good at picking my tracks out of all the other tracks on the hill to try and decipher what my skis are actually doing. I feel the inside edge of the outside? ski (downhill at the bottom of the turn) edging, but the inside ski? (uphill at bottom of turn) never seems to grab/edge the snow. I wouldn't say it feels completely flat, I just can't get it tipped enough to get the edge to grab. Or maybe I'm not putting much pressure on it? It usually just kinda lightly touches the ground to help me balance through the turn. The few times I tried to tip it more and put more pressure on it, the edge would grab but then I'd practically lose control/balance like the skis weren't turning together. I also have a bad habit on steeper (to me) blacks of picking up that same inside? (uphill) ski when turning to get it out of the way. So in those instances I keep most of my weight on the outside? (downhill) ski too. I do more of a skidded/side slipped turn on steeper blacks because I'm a CHICKEN to really face downhill.

I'm not entirely sure I'm correctly using inside/outside ski.

I also, do have my first lesson on Monday (yay!), so I'm sure I'll get plenty of feedback on my self-taught skiing technique. I can let you know what they have to say.

 

[SkiNana]

I also have a bad habit on steeper (to me) blacks of picking up that same inside? (uphill) ski when turning to get it out of the way. .

I have no idea if I will be able to say this in a way that makes sense, but here goes:

If you lead into the next turn with that downhill (was outside) ski as soon as you come off the edge from the present (now finished) turn, and let the toes of that foot lead into the next turn, you won't cross your tips ("ever", I was told: my research is still ongoing on this one!). Not only that, but you can do this without your upper half "following your skis" and you'll be facing downhill more. I heard an instructor telling someone that 'it takes longer to turn if you have to spend time getting your hands into position from behind you', so keeping your hands forward = ready for the next turn = quicker turns = safer on steep.

Hope I don't get a giant raspberry from all the experts/instructors on this! (How do you spell that raspberry sound?)

 

[volklgirl]

In one of my instructor's clinics a local race coach had us working on "parallel shafts" meaning both of your shins should be at the same angle throughout most of the turn. This was the image that finally clicked with me for fully carved turns.

One exercise that we used for this was to use a bungee cord hooked around both our legs at knee level.....you absolutely knew when your shins weren't parallel as there'd be no tension on the bungee and it would unhook or slide way down the legs. You obviously have to do this carefully and somewhere without a lot of traffic, but it's really fun to do with a few people. Our whole group was laughing and giggling while doing this.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Tiny Moose,

Can't wait to hear about your lesson. I have some ideas in addition to those mentioned above, but want to read about how your issue is addressed in your lesson first.

Sounds more like a pressure issue, maybe also a lack of simultaneity issue than an actual inability to get the ski on edge.

Lots of drills can help as can the feedback you will get from your instructor.


In response to the idea behind this approach: If you lead into the next turn with that downhill (was outside) ski as soon as you come off the edge from the present (now finished) turn, and let the toes of that foot lead into the next turn, you won't cross your tips ("ever", I was told: my research is still ongoing on this one!)" I would argue that unless your skis are evenly weighted this will very possibly lead to crossed skis in heavy snow. If both legs are turning an equal amount with evenly distributed weight between the two, whether in a wedge or parallel, it is highly unlikely that the two will cross.

 

[tinymoose]

My first lesson...

It was very enlightening and gave me some insight on the good and bad that is my skiing. I didn't go in asking for a lot of specific advice. Given that I haven't had lessons, I figured I'd let them fix what they saw.

The good:
- I skate well (much thanks to the small amount of pole-less skiing I had when I was 6 or so).
- I apparently balance well on one ski going straight.
- My stance is overall pretty good.
- I link my turns pretty well.

The bad:
- My left turn. My left turn. My left turn.
- I let myself get in the backseat a bit on my turns, and often drop my inside hand, which is what helps lead to my being in the backseat, particularly in my LEFT turn. See a trend here?
- I was picking up my inside ski in my turns because I was allowing myself to get in the back seat. The picking up of the inside foot was slight on flatter ground, which explains why I also do this, just more extreme, on steeper hills. I'm also wondering if this is why I got used to using the outside ski to turn, as I mentioned above.

So he had me work focus less on carving, and more maintaining equal pressure on both skis through the turn. He also had me work on leaning more forward and lateral to initiate the turn (we did some pet the dog drill). By the end of the night I was turning, even on the steeper pitches, without picking up my inside foot as much. I could keep it on the ground most of the time, although sometimes old habits die hard, particularly on the tricksy left turn. The pole planting is still a work in progress, for sure.

I also found it funny, and interesting, that the instructor quickly noticed that my left turn was far more problematic than my right, since the bootfitter had also noticed that I have a hitch when I lean/turn left (that he tried to adjust for somewhat with shims).

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Thanks for the update. Sounds like you learned a bit from today and that the issue was a pressure/weighting one...amongst others.

Fun to have things to work on, though don't let it get in the way of having fun.

 

[pinto]

One thing that helps me is thinking, Turn with the little toe, Weight with the big toe. And in that order: even though it happens sort of at the same time, if I think about turning the little toe first, it seems to work better. Hopefully this keeps my inside leg from being too lazy.

The other thing is one-footed skiing, you really can feel the little-toe edge. Then when I go into regular skiing, I feel much more "on it." (As always, caveats abound -- not an instructor, much work to do, but this simple thing does seem to help.)

 

[geargrrl]

Something that really helped me understand edges and carving, weighting and using both my feet, and all the other parts of it, was the book, How The Racers Ski by Warren Witherall. It's an oldie but a real goodie, and very readable. If you can find a copy, I'd highly recommend it. It must be out of print now? I'd better hand onto mine!


https://www.amazon.com/How-Racers-Ski-Warren-Witherell/dp/0393303446

 

[SkiNana]

If you lead into the next turn with that downhill ski as soon as you come off the edge from the present turn, letting the toes of that foot lead into the next turn, you won't cross your tips.
I would argue that unless your skis are evenly weighted this will very possibly lead to crossed skis in heavy snow. If both legs are turning an equal amount with evenly distributed weight between the two, whether in a wedge or parallel, it is highly unlikely that the two will cross.

Question here: In heavy snow, I absolutely know to keep both skis evenly weighted, having discovered, (and rediscovered, and rediscov...!) what happens when I don't! :D But... do I remember incorrectly that when an instructor asked a class what percentage of our weight was on each ski during a turn, the answer which met with his approval was along the lines of "80-20" or "70-30"? I am sure I have more weight on the outside ski when I am turning on smooth surfaces.

Also: I have noticed on long run outs when I am going fast and just letting my skis run, that my right ski tends to "shimmy" and it's hard for me to get enough pressure on it to control that. That's the same leg that sometimes feels like there is "torque" in my lower leg - like it's twisting to accomplish what happens naturally on the left. I have a mild right sided disability and immensely rigid feet (and right hip), but I really don't have a leg length discrepancy: they're within millimeters. I thought my custom orthotics would help with this problem. I don't even know who to tell about this: boot guy, ski guy, instructor, PT?

 

[snoWYmonkey]

How much weight is correct? This is an answer I often ponder. Always remember that there are no absolutes in skiing (aside from having fun doing it that is). I like to think of it two ways. The first and most important is that I strive for equal pressure on the tongues at all times. That being said this pressure changes at different phases of the turn...but even from side to side has really helped my own skiing.

Now, a different matter is that higher speed carved turn. I believe that we can aim for even pressure against the cuff, but end up with a lot more "weight" on our outside ski as a result of the forces of the turn pushing everything towards the outside. This I believe is what is meant by that 80/20 weighting. It is not an intentional un-weighting of the inside ski, but more a result of the turn speed and intensity.

It is at times visible in racers where they would have a hard time holding that outside ski edge if that leg was not extended and as a result of this they are using skeletal alignment to help fight off the incredible forces at play.

As for the shimmy, I am not totally sure on what you mean, but suspect it may be either that you do not have enough of an even distribution of weight between the two skis, or too much edge angle going. Why would it only happen with your right leg? My wild guess is that it might be the one you trust more, so without knowing it you can both weight it more (too much?) and get it up onto a higher edge. This might be both an instructor and a PT issue. Strengthen the left leg, develop more agility and balance with it, or address it with drills (assuming the boot fit is a good one to begin with.)

 

[mountainxtc]

Question here: In heavy snow, I absolutely know to keep both skis evenly weighted, having discovered, (and rediscovered, and rediscov...!) what happens when I don't! :D But... do I remember incorrectly that when an instructor asked a class what percentage of our weight was on each ski during a turn, the answer which met with his approval was along the lines of "80-20" or "70-30"? I am sure I have more weight on the outside ski when I am turning on smooth surfaces.

There is no correct answer to this question. The amount of weight (I prefer "balance over" rather than "weight on") on the outside ski changes continuously through the phases of a turn. I am sure what your instructor was referring to when he approved of certain numbers was the maximum achieved difference between the two skis in a certain part of the turn. Of course there is no correct answer for this either as it is dependent on conditions, pitch, speed, etc. The only constant is that it should never be constant! If you start a turn by immediately dumping 70-80% of your weight onto the new outside ski it will be extremely difficult to manage the resulting pressure later in the turn. Think being spat out, chatter, or any such related symptoms. Movement onto the new outside ski, as with all movements in skiing, must be progressive.

 

[SkiNana]

As for the shimmy, I am not totally sure on what you mean, but suspect it may be either that you do not have enough of an even distribution of weight between the two skis, or too much edge angle going. Why would it only happen with your right leg? My wild guess is that it might be the one you trust more, so without knowing it you can both weight it more (too much?) and get it up onto a higher edge. This might be both an instructor and a PT issue. Strengthen the left leg, develop more agility and balance with it, or address it with drills (assuming the boot fit is a good one to begin with.)

Boots fit well and are not ready to be replaced this year, according to the local boot genius. I am referring to when I am more or less on flat skis, not up on edge much, trying to extend the long run with as much speed as I can maintain. Yes, I imagine I feel more faith in my right leg. I am unequivocally right sided in everything. (right handed, right eyed, etc.)

 

[climbingbetty]

Also: I have noticed on long run outs when I am going fast and just letting my skis run, that my right ski tends to "shimmy" and it's hard for me to get enough pressure on it to control that. That's the same leg that sometimes feels like there is "torque" in my lower leg - like it's twisting to accomplish what happens naturally on the left. I have a mild right sided disability and immensely rigid feet (and right hip), but I really don't have a leg length discrepancy: they're within millimeters. I thought my custom orthotics would help with this problem. I don't even know who to tell about this: boot guy, ski guy, instructor, PT?

PT/chiro/kinesiologist

 

[SkiNana]

PT/chiro/kinesiologist

PT/kinesiologist are good suggestions. People with five fused cervical vertebrae tend to avoid chiropractors. (At least this one does!)

 

[ladyluck]

Question

It was very enlightening and gave me some insight on the good and bad that is my skiing. I didn't go in asking for a lot of specific advice. Given that I haven't had lessons, I figured I'd let them fix what they saw.

The good:
- I skate well (much thanks to the small amount of pole-less skiing I had when I was 6 or so).
- I apparently balance well on one ski going straight.
- My stance is overall pretty good.
- I link my turns pretty well.

The bad:
- My left turn. My left turn. My left turn.
- I let myself get in the backseat a bit on my turns, and often drop my inside hand, which is what helps lead to my being in the backseat, particularly in my LEFT turn. See a trend here?
- I was picking up my inside ski in my turns because I was allowing myself to get in the back seat. The picking up of the inside foot was slight on flatter ground, which explains why I also do this, just more extreme, on steeper hills. I'm also wondering if this is why I got used to using the outside ski to turn, as I mentioned above.

So he had me work focus less on carving, and more maintaining equal pressure on both skis through the turn. He also had me work on leaning more forward and lateral to initiate the turn (we did some pet the dog drill). By the end of the night I was turning, even on the steeper pitches, without picking up my inside foot as much. I could keep it on the ground most of the time, although sometimes old habits die hard, particularly on the tricksy left turn. The pole planting is still a work in progress, for sure.

I also found it funny, and interesting, that the instructor quickly noticed that my left turn was far more problematic than my right, since the bootfitter had also noticed that I have a hitch when I lean/turn left (that he tried to adjust for somewhat with shims).

I was wondering who your boot fitter is, and where you took the lesson, if you wouldn't mind sharing. I am having a heck of a time finding one locally, and can't seem to find any local instructors certified above level 2. I am not against PSIA 1, by the way, but I have some leg length discrepancy issues that are better understood by higher than level 1. Thanks! Glad to hear you had a positive experience!

 

[litterbug]

:duck:OK, so I'm reading Lito Tejada Flores, and he seems to like one-footed skiing, and stresses being able to balance the weight on the stance (outside or carving) foot. I hate to get into a one-footed vs. two-footed war or anything, but...

I'm a purely recreational skier, but when skiing on ice, I find myself skiing a lot better when I balance almost entirely on my outside ski in the middle of the turn (I think I fell last week because I spaced out, forgot this, and lost my edges on the ice). There's a transition between turns, but the faster I get over that outside ski, the less scrapey the whole experience is, and I get some of that carvey speed in the middle of the turn. On softer snow I put some weight on the inside ski, and it's on its little-toe edge and tracking with the stance ski. I haven't skied powder, but my understanding is that the softer the snow, the more two-footed the skiing is. But at higher speeds I find my inside ski often just brushes the snow at the apex of the turn.

Sorry, just yammering on. I wish there were nice soft snow; my shoulder's starting to feel better and I wanna ski. Oops, wrong thread.