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Can Vail Resorts Fail?

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
Interesting article on this topic here.

What do you think? I mean, we've seen big ski corporations come and go before (I'm thinking about the American Ski Company), but of course, none was as big as Vail. And none has gone through as ambitious a spate of acquisitions as Vail has, either. Will Vail's fate be any different?
 

marymack

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yes, an interesting article... I am less interested in Vail's profitability/viability from a stockholder perspective and of course more concerned from a skier experience and consumer perspective.
I do wonder the effect that the business mentality/need to deliver for stock holders has on things like:
-willingness to blow snow in marginal temperatures
-opening of mountains in early/late season
-running auxiliary lifts or even closing parts of the mountain during non-peak times
-cutting down on grooming during non-peak times
-increasing lift ticket, ski school, rental, lodging and food costs (all of which impact new skiers the most).

I predict that Vail will look to cut corners where ever they can to increase profit margins and as skiers have less and less options (vail buying up resorts/locking people into passes/forcing out the competition), they will be able to get away with it more and more. Things like less thorough reporting on grooming/snow conditions is already becoming the norm.

The employee situation is actually something that a lot of mountains are facing...partly because of Vail/Alterra....it used to be you worked at a mountain to get a pass. On the east coast, a lot of mountains rely on part time staff for weekends. With cheap multi-mountain passes, if you are serious about skiing (and especially if you already have a full time job), it doesn't make sense to work for a mountain and give up the little free skiing time you have, when you could just buy an Epic or Ikon pass. Certainly in places where Vail is looking to hire full time, seasonal employees, that are looking to live on what they make at the mountain...I can see why the problem is exacerbated.
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yes, an interesting article... I am less interested in Vail's profitability/viability from a stockholder perspective and of course more concerned from a skier experience and consumer perspective.
I do wonder the effect that the business mentality/need to deliver for stock holders has on things like:
-willingness to blow snow in marginal temperatures
-opening of mountains in early/late season
-running auxiliary lifts or even closing parts of the mountain during non-peak times
-cutting down on grooming during non-peak times
-increasing lift ticket, ski school, rental, lodging and food costs (all of which impact new skiers the most).

I predict that Vail will look to cut corners where ever they can to increase profit margins and as skiers have less and less options (vail buying up resorts/locking people into passes/forcing out the competition), they will be able to get away with it more and more. Things like less thorough reporting on grooming/snow conditions is already becoming the norm.

The employee situation is actually something that a lot of mountains are facing...partly because of Vail/Alterra....it used to be you worked at a mountain to get a pass. On the east coast, a lot of mountains rely on part time staff for weekends. With cheap multi-mountain passes, if you are serious about skiing (and especially if you already have a full time job), it doesn't make sense to work for a mountain and give up the little free skiing time you have, when you could just buy an Epic or Ikon pass. Certainly in places where Vail is looking to hire full time, seasonal employees, that are looking to live on what they make at the mountain...I can see why the problem is exacerbated.
Even though not owned by Vail, we have witnessed this happening at Snowbasin this season, which is under its second year of new management. Management that has no ski industry experience, but marketing and "bean counting" experience. There was terrain closed or ungroomed that in every year past, would be opened and primed well before the busy holiday season. There was terrain closed/ungroomed until the weekend that in the past would be opened for the locals during the week. The excuse was not enough snow. The locals knew better. There was plenty of snow, even early season.

The speculation is they are doing everything they can to make the mountain LOOK as profitable as possible so that it will be attractive to a buyer (Vail.) This would include Sun Valley, as they are both owned by the Sinclair Corporation. I do find it ironic (and slightly unsettling for personal reasons) that my local hill is owned by big oil.

The quality of product is being sacrificed for the quantity of passes sold. This article proves that selling passes is how they make money. There are many locals who wish they'd double the pass prices here. I agree, except that even FURTHER punishes the locals, particularly in a very blue collar town like Ogden. To be fair, though, we see more and more former Cottonwood Canyons skiers buying passes at Snowbasin because of the crowds and traffic issues at those resorts. All they've done is transplanted their problems to our mountain. If Vail buys it, it will quadruple the issue, I'm afraid.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
That's an interesting article! On one hand it's the story of a lot of companies these days. Shareholder profits are given primacy, bean counters replace experts in management, customers get screwed. Let's hope it works out better for Vail and their customers then it has for Boeing.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
As for the labor problem, I'm so tired of ski resorts complaining about this. I know it's a tight labor market, but if the cost of housing it's what is preventing people from working for you, then !=&$!#& do something about it. Sun Valley, which already had quite a bit of employee housing, just built new facilities for 588 employees. A good chunk of these are apartments for families.

https://magicvalley.com/news/local/...cle_13245edc-28d3-5732-b1d1-21215024a140.html

I realize that's easier for some places than others. Some places are very geographically constrained and there just isn't the land. in some places due to high land prices that ship might have sailed. In that case, guess what, you're gonna have to pay people more so they can afford to live there. This has been a problem for so long and there is been so little action.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
I can't speculate, but #pleasedontletvailbuysnowbasinandsunvalley

Does the same board (mostly Holding family) that manages Sun Valley manage Snowbasin? I've never quite understood if the two resorts are managed exactly the same by the same people. Anyway, my understanding is that Carol Holding has it set up so that her family can't make any sales or do anything to SV until all of her grandkids are adults. I don't think we are that far away from that, unfortunately...
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Does the same board (mostly Holding family) that manages Sun Valley manage Snowbasin? I've never quite understood if the two resorts are managed exactly the same by the same people. Anyway, my understanding is that Carol Holding has it set up so that her family can't make any sales or do anything to SV until all of her grandkids are adults. I don't think we are that far away from that, unfortunately...
So, I believe the same board oversees it all, but each mountain has its own dedicated management team and is run independently. The general rumblings from the long-time Snowbasin skiers is that things really have gone downhill since Earl Holding died. He was all about a QUALITY experience. Now, it's all about quantity. And the quality suffers as a result.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
As for the labor problem, I'm so tired of ski resorts complaining about this. I know it's a tight labor market, but if the cost of housing it's what is preventing people from working for you, then !=&$!#& do something about it. Sun Valley, which already had quite a bit of employee housing, just built new facilities for 588 employees. A good chunk of these are apartments for families.

https://magicvalley.com/news/local/...cle_13245edc-28d3-5732-b1d1-21215024a140.html

I realize that's easier for some places than others. Some places are very geographically constrained and there just isn't the land. in some places due to high land prices that ship might have sailed. In that case, guess what, you're gonna have to pay people more so they can afford to live there. This has been a problem for so long and there is been so little action.
Good point! Boyne Resorts has built employee housing at Big Sky. It's an ongoing process.

The book Ski Inc. 2000 by Chris Diamond is a good source of info about the current state of the ski industry. He had to do quick re-writes and edits the summer it was published because that's when VR bought Peak Resorts. He covered not only VR and Alterra, but also Boyne, Powdr, Peak, and other "mid-major" companies. All are working hard to end up with solid 4-season resorts. Making money during the summer season is the only way a ski resort will survive as a viable business. That also means more full-time jobs. Although there will always be many seasonable jobs in the leisure industry.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
So, I believe the same board oversees it all, but each mountain has its own dedicated management team and is run independently. The general rumblings from the long-time Snowbasin skiers is that things really have gone downhill since Earl Holding died. He was all about a QUALITY experience. Now, it's all about quantity. And the quality suffers as a result.

Yeah, at SV at least it was a pet project of his. I guess when you have Sinclair oil billions you don't really care about the few bucks you're going to make on a ski resort. I'm told that even though Carol is in her upper 80s she is sharp as a tack and still very involved in continuing his vision. I only get an annual update from one of the lodge bell guys who picks us up at the airport, but I haven't noticed or heard people complain of changes at SV. Everyone does live in fear of being bought out by Vail though.
 

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