Calling all boot guru's

[AJM]

So I have quietly gone and bought new ski boots !! I've been in the Tecnica Mach 1 LV 95's for the last few seasons (I think mine were the 2018 model ?) and over that time have had a lot of work done on them by my friendly local boot fitter incl having canting wedges put in during the middle of last season and this is where the trouble started Dont get me wrong I looooove the way the canting plates improved my skiing and removed the majority of my A Framing however my right knee ( I had 3 degree canting in that one) did not love it as much as I did and I've been skiing in varying degrees of pain ever since. I'd finally had enough and as you cant revert the canting once its in I went back to square one and managed to get a pair of Tecnica Mach 1 LV 105's (2022) which my bootfitter managed to locate. We've been playing around with them over the last couple of days and I thought we'd got them sorted but I was getting this strange ache on the outside of my right instep and up through my lower leg (the really wonky leg) so my bootfitter took out the heel lifts I've had in my ski boots since like forever and it improved. Once I got home I tried them again and there it was again, this weird ache .... fast forward and I put my old liners in the new shells and bingo the pain had gone. I had a look at both the new liners and my old ones and the tongue in the new ones seems quite a lot narrower and I'm wondering if this has something to do with it, perhaps its putting pressure on a nerve or something? For now I'm going to ski in my old liners (which although are packing out arent too bad just yet) and get used to skiing without the canting plates again and also the higher flex (which of course I can soften if needed). Its strange as its basically the same boot just with a higher flex so all I can think is that the tongue has something to do with it, anyone have any thoughts?

 

[liquidfeet]

So I have quietly gone and bought new ski boots !! I've been in the Tecnica Mach 1 LV 95's for the last few seasons (I think mine were the 2018 model ?) and over that time have had a lot of work done on them by my friendly local boot fitter incl having canting wedges put in during the middle of last season and this is where the trouble started Dont get me wrong I looooove the way the canting plates improved my skiing and removed the majority of my A Framing however my right knee ( I had 3 degree canting in that one) did not love it as much as I did and I've been skiing in varying degrees of pain ever since. I'd finally had enough and as you cant revert the canting once its in I went back to square one and managed to get a pair of Tecnica Mach 1 LV 105's (2022) which my bootfitter managed to locate. We've been playing around with them over the last couple of days and I thought we'd got them sorted but I was getting this strange ache on the outside of my right instep and up through my lower leg (the really wonky leg) so my bootfitter took out the heel lifts I've had in my ski boots since like forever and it improved. Once I got home I tried them again and there it was again, this weird ache .... fast forward and I put my old liners in the new shells and bingo the pain had gone. I had a look at both the new liners and my old ones and the tongue in the new ones seems quite a lot narrower and I'm wondering if this has something to do with it, perhaps its putting pressure on a nerve or something? For now I'm going to ski in my old liners (which although are packing out arent too bad just yet) and get used to skiing without the canting plates again and also the higher flex (which of course I can soften if needed). Its strange as its basically the same boot just with a higher flex so all I can think is that the tongue has something to do with it, anyone have any thoughts?

Bootfitting is a black art. Meaning, trial and error is sometimes called for to get the results you want. When something works, enjoy it.

In other words, no idea at all.

 

[AJM]

Bootfitting is a black art. Meaning, trial and error is sometimes called for to get the results you want. When something works, enjoy it.

In other words, no idea at all.

You are not wrong ! I took the new boots out on Sunday minus the heel lifts and minus the canting .... what a disaster !!! All my alignment issues popped up again and I missed the heel lifts dreadfully soooo I've gone back to my old boots (with the canting plates) added the heel lifts back in and popped in the new liner from my new boots (I'll deal with the new shells later ) so I'll see how that goes. I'm way too scared to tell my bootfitter but she'll probably find out tomorrow

 

[WaterGirl]

@AJM I did a little googling and it seems there have been some tweaks over the years and the 105 may have a "floating tongue" and moldable "collar" and "T" spine. Also I believe that there are adjustments for the calf that may also change the fit of the boot which your older boot may have. Definitely some changes for the 2022 boot. If you like the older liner you may be able to contact Tecnica to see if they are still selling the older liner - I was able to do that a few years ago for a 2016 boot. Just another variable - how are your footbeds? It's a process.... I know - hopefully things get worked out soon!

 

[liquidfeet]

You are not wrong ! I took the new boots out on Sunday minus the heel lifts and minus the canting .... what a disaster !!! All my alignment issues popped up again and I missed the heel lifts dreadfully soooo I've gone back to my old boots (with the canting plates) added the heel lifts back in and popped in the new liner from my new boots (I'll deal with the new shells later ) so I'll see how that goes. I'm way too scared to tell my bootfitter but she'll probably find out tomorrow

Your bootfitter will be able to digest and use the information you gained by playing around with your two sets of boots with all their aftermarket alterations. Do tell her.

Most people don't mess with their boots. But after seeing lots of expert skiers doing exactly that, finding things out for themselves, then taking that info to their bootfitter, I'm sold on it. The boots are yours and it's your feet in them; no one but you can evaluate what works and what doesn't once you get on snow. Your bootfitter is just guessing. Switch things around as much as you like with those boots, then take that info to your bootfitter so she can bring her expertise into the plan. The two of you will be making coordinated efforts to get things right.

 

[AJM]

@AJM I did a little googling and it seems there have been some tweaks over the years and the 105 may have a "floating tongue" and moldable "collar" and "T" spine. Also I believe that there are adjustments for the calf that may also change the fit of the boot which your older boot may have. Definitely some changes for the 2022 boot. If you like the older liner you may be able to contact Tecnica to see if they are still selling the older liner - I was able to do that a few years ago for a 2016 boot. Just another variable - how are your footbeds? It's a process.... I know - hopefully things get worked out soon!

The floating tongue is a bit strange, you can unvelcro it and move it up and down. My footbeds are great, I got new ones last season. I think its my stupid wonky legs that causing all the issues. I'm taking the old boots ( canting plates and all) with the new liners to see how I go today, but will sling my old liners in the car as well in case it goes pear shaped

 

[AJM]

Your bootfitter will be able to digest and use the information you gained by playing around with your two sets of boots with all their aftermarket alterations. Do tell her.

Most people don't mess with their boots. But after seeing lots of expert skiers doing exactly that, finding things out for themselves, then taking that info to their bootfitter, I'm sold on it. The boots are yours and it's your feet in them; no one but you can evaluate what works and what doesn't once you get on snow. Your bootfitter is just guessing. Switch things around as much as you like with those boots, then take that info to your bootfitter so she can bring her expertise into the plan. The two of you will be making coordinated efforts to get things right.

I'm heading up today so I'll see how it goes . x

 

[elemmac]

Most people don't mess with their boots. But after seeing lots of expert skiers doing exactly that, finding things out for themselves, then taking that info to their bootfitter, I'm sold on it. The boots are yours and it's your feet in them; no one but you can evaluate what works and what doesn't once you get on snow. Your bootfitter is just guessing. Switch things around as much as you like with those boots, then take that info to your bootfitter so she can bring her expertise into the plan. The two of you will be making coordinated efforts to get things right.

There's a Blister Gear 30 Podcast I recall listening to that echoes your sentiments here...and it's an interview with a boot guy from Atomic (I don't recall who), but someone that works with pros. Basically, play around with things in a temporary fashion...folded trail maps, aftermarket spoilers, duct tape on the bottom of footbeds...then take that information of what felt good and what didn't to your bootfitter and let them do their work to make the good stuff permanent.

 

[AJM]

Your bootfitter will be able to digest and use the information you gained by playing around with your two sets of boots with all their aftermarket alterations. Do tell her.

I'm super lucky in that I'm good friends with my bootfitter even though I'm sure she tears her hair out sometimes over all my issues

 

[racetiger]

There's a Blister Gear 30 Podcast I recall listening to that echoes your sentiments here...and it's an interview with a boot guy from Atomic (I don't recall who), but someone that works with pros.

Matt Manser is his name.
There are 7 parts to the Atomic boot deep dive.

 

[AJM]

Ok so it did go pear shaped !!! New liners in old boots wasn't a winning formula, there's something about the new liners that is giving me way too much pain so I've shelved the new boots for now and am going to continue with my old ones (note that there is nothing wrong with my old ones it was just the canting plates that were giving me grief but I'm working through that and I definately ski better with them) ..... I saw my bootfitter up at the ski hill and she was all good, we'll have another look at them down the line. In the meantime I'm going to be having a great season in my old ones !

 

[AJM]

Boot drama update!
So last week my old liners finally packed out so much that they are now basically redundant, combine that with the knee pain caused by the canting plates I gave up and got the new boots and liners tweaked. I took them for a spin today and can happily report no knee pain- yay.
I am however back to skiing with the dreaded A Frame but I figure its a small price to pay if I can ski pain free.
Here's a pic of what Im up against with my wonky legs

 

[liquidfeet]

WHOOPS... I edited that post above but it took me too long and the site wouldn't allow me to post the changes. Here is the edited version, which is more thorough.

There are both functional problems with some A-frames, but not all of them.

There are two functional problems an A-frame can cause that I'm familiar with. First, the skier can't keep both skis at the same angle. The knock-kneed stance means the lower legs, inside their boot cuffs, tilt the cuffs and therefore the skis to different angles. Second, an A-frame stance can also enforce a bit of a wedge through much of the turn. Both of these diminish your control over your skis to some degree. The canting wedges on the soles of the boots are meant to eliminate dysfunctional A-frames.

But not all A-frames lead to these problems. Some A-frames are simply aesthetic.

If you are able to keep both skis totally flat when doing a straight run on low pitch terrain, and if you are able to keep the skis parallel, all while skiing with your A-frame, then your issue is only aesthetic. If you aren't pursuing instructor certification then you can stop worrying about that A-frame and just go enjoy skiing.

To figure out whether your A-frame is functionally impacting your skiing or not, get someone to follow you and take video while you make a straight run on low-pitch terrain. The low pitch is important, so gravity will allow you to move downhill slowly.

--For part of this run, ask your follower to follow closely, so the camera is pointing downward at your skis. This should show whether there is a persistent wedge.
--For another part of the run, ask this person to hold the camera low and point it at the backs of the skis so it can capture whether they are flat or on opposing edges.

If a wedge and/or different tip angles are present, you might want to do more work to eliminate the A-frame.

Boot sole canting should only be used after two other things are taken care of in the shop. First, you should have a custom footbed made to keep your feet from pronating. Then the cuffs should be adjusted to match the tilt of each of your lower legs as you stand still in the shop. Bootfitters know how to do these things. You may already have had these things done to your boots.

The general principle is that footbeds adjust the amount of ankle tipping inside the boot, and boot sole canting wedges move the knees.

When you have your friend follow you to take the video, be sure these two things have already been done. Then - if your skis insist on being in a little wedge, and/or if they insist on tipping at different angles - you should revisit the issue of boot sole canting. Maybe the canting was overdone before, causing your pain. You might do better with undersole wedges that are not so high.

Anatomy is creative. There are several things that may be causing your legs to go knock-kneed. Your feet may be rolling inwards, pronating, in which case the problem starts low. Or your femurs or tibias might be a bit twisted in such a way that causes knock-knees. Or you may have an anterior pelvic tilt, in which case the issue starts up at the pelvis.

If it's the feet, then you're in luck. Good custom footbeds should be able to straighten them out. If it's the pelvis, forming the new habit of un-tilting your pelvis so that it sits neutral can potentially erase the issue. If it's the leg bones, you will need boot work to get optimal use out of your skis.

Here's an image of how the pelvic tilt can cause all of this.


Ask me how I know all this.

 

[rivarunnamomma]

WHOOPS... I edited that post above but it took me too long and the site wouldn't allow me to post the changes. Here is the edited version, which is more thorough.

There are both functional problems with some A-frames, but not all of them.

There are two functional problems an A-frame can cause that I'm familiar with. First, the skier can't keep both skis at the same angle. The knock-kneed stance means the lower legs, inside their boot cuffs, tilt the cuffs and therefore the skis to different angles. Second, an A-frame stance can also enforce a bit of a wedge through much of the turn. Both of these diminish your control over your skis to some degree. The canting wedges on the soles of the boots are meant to eliminate dysfunctional A-frames.

But not all A-frames lead to these problems. Some A-frames are simply aesthetic.

If you are able to keep both skis totally flat when doing a straight run on low pitch terrain, and if you are able to keep the skis parallel, all while skiing with your A-frame, then your issue is only aesthetic. If you aren't pursuing instructor certification then you can stop worrying about that A-frame and just go enjoy skiing.

To figure out whether your A-frame is functionally impacting your skiing or not, get someone to follow you and take video while you make a straight run on low-pitch terrain. The low pitch is important, so gravity will allow you to move downhill slowly.

--For part of this run, ask your follower to follow closely, so the camera is pointing downward at your skis. This should show whether there is a persistent wedge.
--For another part of the run, ask this person to hold the camera low and point it at the backs of the skis so it can capture whether they are flat or on opposing edges.

If a wedge and/or different tip angles are present, you might want to do more work to eliminate the A-frame.

Boot sole canting should only be used after two other things are taken care of in the shop. First, you should have a custom footbed made to keep your feet from pronating. Then the cuffs should be adjusted to match the tilt of each of your lower legs as you stand still in the shop. Bootfitters know how to do these things. You may already have had these things done to your boots.

The general principle is that footbeds adjust the amount of ankle tipping inside the boot, and boot sole canting wedges move the knees.

When you have your friend follow you to take the video, be sure these two things have already been done. Then - if your skis insist on being in a little wedge, and/or if they insist on tipping at different angles - you should revisit the issue of boot sole canting. Maybe the canting was overdone before, causing your pain. You might do better with undersole wedges that are not so high.

Anatomy is creative. There are several things that may be causing your legs to go knock-kneed. Your feet may be rolling inwards, pronating, in which case the problem starts low. Or your femurs or tibias might be a bit twisted in such a way that causes knock-knees. Or you may have an anterior pelvic tilt, in which case the issue starts up at the pelvis.

If it's the feet, then you're in luck. Good custom footbeds should be able to straighten them out. If it's the pelvis, forming the new habit of un-tilting your pelvis so that it sits neutral can potentially erase the issue. If it's the leg bones, you will need boot work to get optimal use out of your skis.

Here's an image of how the pelvic tilt can cause all of this.
View attachment 19150
View attachment 19151
Ask me how I know all this.

Awesome article! (I’ll bite! How DO you know all this?)

 

[liquidfeet]

Awesome article! (I’ll bite! How DO you know all this?)

I have that pelvic tilt issue. I obsessed over my A-frame for years. It's gone now, and I don't know why but am thankful. Mystery.

 

[Pequenita]

I have that pelvic tilt issue. I obsessed over my A-frame for years. It's gone now, and I don't know why but am thankful. Mystery.

Neutral pelvis now?

 

[Jilly]

My A frame for years, was not edging the up hill ski. Need to learn to trust it and go.

 

[AJM]

WHOOPS... I edited that post above but it took me too long and the site wouldn't allow me to post the changes. Here is the edited version, which is more thorough.

There are both functional problems with some A-frames, but not all of them.

There are two functional problems an A-frame can cause that I'm familiar with. First, the skier can't keep both skis at the same angle. The knock-kneed stance means the lower legs, inside their boot cuffs, tilt the cuffs and therefore the skis to different angles. Second, an A-frame stance can also enforce a bit of a wedge through much of the turn. Both of these diminish your control over your skis to some degree. The canting wedges on the soles of the boots are meant to eliminate dysfunctional A-frames.

But not all A-frames lead to these problems. Some A-frames are simply aesthetic.

If you are able to keep both skis totally flat when doing a straight run on low pitch terrain, and if you are able to keep the skis parallel, all while skiing with your A-frame, then your issue is only aesthetic. If you aren't pursuing instructor certification then you can stop worrying about that A-frame and just go enjoy skiing.

To figure out whether your A-frame is functionally impacting your skiing or not, get someone to follow you and take video while you make a straight run on low-pitch terrain. The low pitch is important, so gravity will allow you to move downhill slowly.

--For part of this run, ask your follower to follow closely, so the camera is pointing downward at your skis. This should show whether there is a persistent wedge.
--For another part of the run, ask this person to hold the camera low and point it at the backs of the skis so it can capture whether they are flat or on opposing edges.

If a wedge and/or different tip angles are present, you might want to do more work to eliminate the A-frame.

Boot sole canting should only be used after two other things are taken care of in the shop. First, you should have a custom footbed made to keep your feet from pronating. Then the cuffs should be adjusted to match the tilt of each of your lower legs as you stand still in the shop. Bootfitters know how to do these things. You may already have had these things done to your boots.

The general principle is that footbeds adjust the amount of ankle tipping inside the boot, and boot sole canting wedges move the knees.

When you have your friend follow you to take the video, be sure these two things have already been done. Then - if your skis insist on being in a little wedge, and/or if they insist on tipping at different angles - you should revisit the issue of boot sole canting. Maybe the canting was overdone before, causing your pain. You might do better with undersole wedges that are not so high.

Anatomy is creative. There are several things that may be causing your legs to go knock-kneed. Your feet may be rolling inwards, pronating, in which case the problem starts low. Or your femurs or tibias might be a bit twisted in such a way that causes knock-knees. Or you may have an anterior pelvic tilt, in which case the issue starts up at the pelvis.

If it's the feet, then you're in luck. Good custom footbeds should be able to straighten them out. If it's the pelvis, forming the new habit of un-tilting your pelvis so that it sits neutral can potentially erase the issue. If it's the leg bones, you will need boot work to get optimal use out of your skis.

Here's an image of how the pelvic tilt can cause all of this.
View attachment 19150
View attachment 19151
Ask me how I know all this.

Wow thats great info!
I've got the footbeds and the cuff alignment so thats all taken care of.
I'd never seen a pic of my legs like this and was quite shocked at how bad my right leg is ! I find I really have to focus on that leg when I'm turning right to try and stop that knee drifting in. I havent noticed any unwanted wedges and have no problem keeping my ski's parallel and the only time I really notice that perhaps my inside right edge might be catching is when I ride up the T Bars and then I really have to focus on not catching that edge.
Today will be day 2 in the new boots sans canting so I'll see how I go x

 

[AJM]

Soooo I did what @liquidfeet suggested and I can confirm that without the canting pIates I do indeed have a tiny wedge when I'm straightlining down a mellow slope (ie one of those slopes you have to straightline to actually move forward !)

I skied in the new boots again today minus the canting and really didnt have a great time. I'm sitting here typing and my right leg is AGONY !! I'm thinking that the boot flex is too high in the new boots (Tecnica Mach 1 LV) , its 105 and my old boots are 95 (again Tecnica Mach 1 LV) combined with having to focus on keeping my ski's flat. Remember I'm a bit of lightweight 56kg at most and currently 54kg. I can flex them but sheeeesh its hard work.

I and others noticed that I ski so much better and have a lot more confidence in my boots and therefore my ability with the canting plates.

End result new tweaked liners in old boots (with canting plates) that have a lower flex and I'll try again !
Oh and a couple of glasses of red wine

 

[badger]

Oh and a couple of glasses of red wine

Yep. Can't go wrong there!!!