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Buying demo skis...

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Stiffness != dampness. Heavier skis tend to be damper in general. Heavier skis generally absorb/cut through chop and even out terrain variation better than lighter skis. Wider skis help smooth out unevenness, too. Certain core materials absorb vibrations better than others. Stiff skis just take more force to bend than soft skis. Stiff skis generally have a stability advantage at speed, whereas soft skis are easier to bend at slow speeds (moguls / park / super-lightweights). Find what works best for you and the terrain/conditions you ski most!

It's kinda hard to compare numbers until you've demoed a bunch of skis, and start to see patterns emerge.
I think this is what still confuses me about my new skis b/c they don't feel stiff to ski them. Yet, they're very damp and stable, which I do feel like is explained by the stats here, given the Faction is rated as stiffer than both the BP and Yumi both for bending and torsional stiffness. They're just so lightweight and the ride and flex feels so smooth and even. I'm currently trying to decipher/make sense of that graph you posted above. As if it's gonna make it all make sense. lol
 

TiffAlt

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
To think about how easy a ski is to maneuver you need to consider a few things, but it all comes down to how much pressure (force) you have at the tip and tail. The more you have, the more it will engage quickly and the harder it will be to release.

To create pressure at the tip and tail you need to look at the stiffness (more stiffness increases the pressure), the camber (more camber increases the pressure), the sidecut radius (less sidecut radius increases the pressure) and the length from center to tip/tail (more length will decrease the pressure but will increase the lever arm, so not that simple). More edge angle will also increase the pressure at the tip/tail.

The BP has more camber, a lower sidecut radius and a longer running length. But honestly, it is not an easy comparison based on specs alone, especially because the Yumy has a very long early rise, which is hard to say if it will engage or not the snow.

More mass doesn't increase the pressure, but will make the ski harder to pivot (maneuver around with light pressure on snow), will cut through crud easier and will also make the ski more stable at speed (it is not damping as an engineer would use the term, but it is how it is described by skiers).

If you describe a bit more what you feel on snow, I could continue describing which parameters are important.
Thanks, I'm not sure how to accurately describe it, but the phrase "more maneuverable" comes to mind.

I am favoring shorter turns right now to help me feel more in control on cat tracks and narrow runs, rather than long arching turns and feel I am more easily able to pivot and execute a nice short turn on the Yumi. The BP made turns that felt like they wanted to be longer and I'd have to pull myself over them to keep my skis close and have them under me for balance. It felt like they wanted to lock into a longer arc and it was really hard to pull them in. It was very easy for the BPs to get out from under me and I'd be skidding and trying to regain control a lot. I felt more in control of the Yumis at all times and cannot understate how confidence-inspiring that was.

For bumps, the Yumi doesn't get "stuck" in them as much as the BP, which always felt like it wanted to slice right through them and sometimes into them, taking me with it, lol. The Yumi more glides over and flexes and I can get them to pivot quickly around the bumps. I would say the Yumi was "forgiving" here where the BP was more "punishing" esp to my knees haha. Happy knees = happier me. Cue grin.

For how well it pivots, it was also quicker and easier for me to get on edge of the Yumi in comparison to the BPs. My husband knows I long to carve and was really impressed by how easily and quickly I was able to get the Yumis up to edge. My carving technique is far from perfect, but this really took that grin on my face and made it ear to ear. You need some speed to start a carve, but when I did this with the BP, the time it took to get on edge meant I was going faster than I wanted to and it'd ruin the turn as I tried to over compensate for balance.

One of my best moments yesterday was on the final lap yesterday. I was still feeling great, even after almost 8 hours of skiing. The run I was on started blue, but has a lip where it became green as it took you down to the base. I passed a young woman waiting at the top of the green, got a bit down and stopped off to the side to text my husband that I was going to buy the demos. I was about to start again when I saw the young woman at the top a little ways down and she'd fallen. I skied over to ask her if she needed any help and she was like, "Oh no, don't worry, it's gonna take me a little bit to get down this, I'm just a beginner." I replied, "I was you a few months ago. Just keep at it and take a few lessons." She was like, "Really, I saw you come down from the blue! You ski so well!" That made me absurdly happy, cause I really was her a few months ago, admiring other skiers around me.
 

alude

Diva in Training
Thanks, I'm not sure how to accurately describe it, but the phrase "more maneuverable" comes to mind.
[...]

It is hard to say without seeing you ski, but your description made me think that you initiate your turns by pivoting, that you don't use high edge angle (otherwise you would feel the full length of the Yumi) and that you have trouble unloading your skis in the transition between turns so pivoting is hard on the BP88 because it has a longer running length and more pressure at the tip/tail. I think that might be why you prefer lighter skis and shorter running lengths. We all do it to a certain extent, nothing bad in that. I also had that feeling when I bought skis too long for me (impossible to pivot, catching everywhere, and felt too locked into each turn). It also seems to me from your description that you are a beginner/intermediate (learning to carve, starting to ski?, blue/green slopes, etc). However, you seem to be all-in with skiing (2 days per week, taking lessons), so you might be able to progress quite quickly and develop more ski "fitness" (e.g., it usually takes me 10-15 ski days at the beginning of the season to really feel good about my skiing). Still, there is nothing bad about buying the skis that you can enjoy right now and selling them when they feel too short!

When I go here and put your stats, I get a recommended length of 141-143 cm for a frontside ski (the BP has a wide waist, but it has otherwise the shape of a frontside carver). Can you try demoing shorter skis?

Have you tried the Yumi in soft snow / powder? In these conditions, the rocker is more likely to engage the snow and you will start feeling the full length of the ski...
 

TiffAlt

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
It is hard to say without seeing you ski, but your description made me think that you initiate your turns by pivoting, that you don't use high edge angle (otherwise you would feel the full length of the Yumi) and that you have trouble unloading your skis in the transition between turns so pivoting is hard on the BP88 because it has a longer running length and more pressure at the tip/tail. I think that might be why you prefer lighter skis and shorter running lengths. We all do it to a certain extent, nothing bad in that. I also had that feeling when I bought skis too long for me (impossible to pivot, catching everywhere, and felt too locked into each turn). It also seems to me from your description that you are a beginner/intermediate (learning to carve, starting to ski?, blue/green slopes, etc). However, you seem to be all-in with skiing (2 days per week, taking lessons), so you might be able to progress quite quickly and develop more ski "fitness" (e.g., it usually takes me 10-15 ski days at the beginning of the season to really feel good about my skiing). Still, there is nothing bad about buying the skis that you can enjoy right now and selling them when they feel too short!

When I go here and put your stats, I get a recommended length of 141-143 cm for a frontside ski (the BP has a wide waist, but it has otherwise the shape of a frontside carver). Can you try demoing shorter skis?

Have you tried the Yumi in soft snow / powder? In these conditions, the rocker is more likely to engage the snow and you will start feeling the full length of the ski...
Hmm, well my instructor has been teaching me short turns by keeping skis parallel to start, letting them fall down the line with gravity, picking up some speed (he calls them starting a J turn) then driving with my inside knee/leg and tipping the pinky toe on that foot to steer. he calls this my "brake" because this is how I will steer my tips uphill to stop. He calls my downhill ski my "brace".

He has been steering me away from putting all my weight on my downhill ski as I am too far forward anyway just kind of naturally. I used to put no weight on my inside ski and it would be all squirrelly in a turn and my knees kind of a-framed so that my turn still resembled a wedge instead of the parallel I was trying to achieve. The wedge and being so far forward made me speed up much faster than I wanted.

To have my inside knee driving, I have to "fortify" it (my own term) and point the knee towards the traverse while pulling the shin of the inside leg under me. Since I was already naturally very forward in stance, I am still forward, but less so this way. I also try to focus on tightening my outside leg at the knee. he calls this gathering energy. At the center of the arc, I start tipping my downhill pinky toe, and that starts a new turn. I "release" the energy when that happens and go back to parallel then start again.

Now I can feel some edge engagement when I do this, though as I said before, far from perfect. I still mess up the mechanics, but that is basically how I try to consciously turn. I found that after I got my new boots earlier this month, the tipping of the little toe (I think I saw @liquidfeet recommend this too) really naturally started the turn and the ankles kind of follow when I get it right, since my knee is pointing to the side as well.

Of course, this is on a wide open groomed runs with not a lot of traffic at the moment. If there are lots of bumps all bets are absolutely off, lol. I'm pretty sure I do pivot in situations that are not ideal and it happens pretty often on some of the most popular runs whether it's because I am trying to avoid people, or get over a bump, etc. I still skid on steep-to-me steeps.

As for trying the Yumi in a lot of different conditions - we actually had a fair amount of various conditions on my demo day. It had snowed 4 inches the night before and was still snowing on and off so the morning was quite nice. The sun came out at lunch though, so after lunch it had gotten icy in several areas. My husband and I did a blue run called Lucky Shot twice and had to call it by the second time cause it had just too icy with too many people for us to feel in control. We made our way back to the other side of the mountain where the snow was less icy. We also did some bumps, short mogul runs and went into the trees for a bit with my son. I even humored my teen and did "caught some air" on the smallest terrain park bump known to man, lol. I loved how forgiving the yumi had been on my knees so decided what the heck, I'll do a small one. Not bad!

I had a pretty good time in all conditions, but hey, I was in a good mood from how much more in control I felt. Maybe part of it was my mental state? But it seemed to handle much better and my husband, who was doubting me even wanting to demo before, is now a firm believer that I was onto something and I just had to find "my" skis because my technique and form was so much better that day. He is starting to talk about demoing now too, LMAO.
 

TiffAlt

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Can you try demoing shorter skis?
As for demoing shorter skis, unfortunately very few places around here carry demos that are much shorter than the Yumi. As it was, the Yumi I demo'ed and bought was Crystal's shortest and narrowest demo this season at 154. I just checked their list for their demo fleet for next season since they refresh every year and the shortest/narrowest combo is the Rossi W Experience 82Ti @ 151cm. They have a few other skis @ 152, but all are wider. I looked at the Ti, but isn't it heavier? And longer in effective edge?

Mt Bachelor where I am going in April has a bit of a better selection. They have the Rossi Experience 82 Basalt W in 143, but I actually thought that was too short. If I demoed them, i was going to go with the 151. Why do you think demoing shorter skis would be helpful? My BPs are 147 for reference.
 

xxs_skier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
When I go here and put your stats, I get a recommended length of 141-143 cm for a frontside ski (the BP has a wide waist, but it has otherwise the shape of a frontside carver). Can you try demoing shorter skis?
I think those calculators start getting iffy for petite people. It seems too short, but I have zero experience to back that up as I'm still a beginner. Maybe someone else can chime in? @tinymoose
 

TiffAlt

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think those calculators start getting iffy for petite people. It seems too short, but I have zero experience to back that up as I'm still a beginner. Maybe someone else can chime in? @tinymoose
I also feel it's too short, but I think those calculators are just "estimates" anyway. @marzNC is tinier than me and prefers longer skis than even I dare to go on right now. I think women have traditionally been recommended shorter skis and I feel that while there are benefits that can be had, it is also strongly dependent on user preference. You're not going to know what you really like until you try. This is why the recommendation is to demo instead of just buying sight unseen.

It's as they said about "parlay" in Pirates of the Carribean:
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marzNC

Angel Diva
I also feel it's too short, but I think those calculators are just "estimates" anyway. @marzNC is tinier than me and prefers longer skis than even I dare to go on right now. I think women have traditionally been recommended shorter skis and I feel that while there are benefits that can be had, it is also strongly dependent on user preference.
Correct, "user preference" based on skiing ability, snow conditions, and experience with different skis is far more important than what a computation based on numbers suggest. There are a lot of factors that go into ski design and materials that impact how they function for a given skier. Modeling real-world situations with mathematics can only do so much. (I was a math major who became a biostatistician.)

Couple of stories . . .

When my daughter was a tween, I bought her used skis that were forehead-height so that they might last two seasons. She had bought new at our local ski shop. She probably looked like a 6yo to him. For a group lesson at our home hill, the supervisor commented that the skis looked very long. I pointed out that she'd skied them the day before on the black trail on the upper mountain (small hill, 3-min run). I didn't have my ski boots on so he was skeptical. Many of the families there include parents or grandparents who don't ski but put their kids in ski school. He asked her to make some turns in the teaching area. She executed perfect round parallel turns (ski school since age 4) on the way to the end of the magic carpet. His comment into the radio was "the little hot shot will be with E." She got a solo lesson with E, who turned out to be his wife and a very experience instructor.

A few years ago we rented skis at Big Snow (indoor ski slope in NJ). We stopped in on the way back from a trip to NYC to see if her BF had potential as a skier and it wasn't worth schlepping all our gear. They gave me and my daughter (petite young adult) skis that were well below chin-height. Even though I checked Advanced on the rental form. She went back and got a longer length. Big Snow caters to beginners and intermediates so not much of a surprise.
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yeah, that calculator is waaaay off for me at 4'10"! It always gives me ridiculously too-short lengths :smile:
yeah, as @xxs_skier and @shadoj said that calculator is giving stupid shorts lengths. I wouldn't call myself intermediate or expert, but if I put intermediate I get 135-141 and expert gets me 140-146. My junior slalom skis are 150 and I wouldn't say they're too long at all.
 

TiffAlt

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@alude
I think I confused you when I said the Yumis pivoted easier. I then said "and execute a nice short turn", but I meant it as two separate things. There are times I have to pivot to maneuver through the crowds or around bumps, but I don't initiate my turns using pivots. I mentioned pivoting because it's very important in my opinion when you need to quickly react, change direction, etc and I found that a lot easier on the Yumis.

I described the mechanics of how I turn in detail above, but after giving it some more thought, I think the key difference between the two skis was in the middle of the turn. Let me try to describe it better. When I try to do that turn on my BPs, after initiating, I have to really fight and keep the tension high to keep the skis from drifting farther apart. Concentrating on keeping them together makes it difficult for me to get on edge as it takes awhile to successfully pull them under me and thus onto the edge. I can definitely do it, but it's very fatiguing right now, maybe because that type of tension is so new to me. The times I am unable to pull it in enough and they get too wide, I end up skidding the turn since I am not truly on edge.

In contrast, on the Yumi it was much easier to pull and keep the skis under me so that I successfully got on edge faster and consequently, I was on edge much more often. Executing this technique well and consistently really improved my form and it was noticeable to both my husband and son. This and the ease of pivoting gave me a lot more confidence since I felt I could both slow myself down in turns using speed control and also react faster in crowds and on bumps using the pivots.

I still want to carve and in the future as I advance, I don't doubt that one day I will probably want to demo a more dedicated carver (well granted if I can find one). But for now, I think I am quite content to progress on my Yumis. I really do adore them - I actually had a dream about them and the wonderful weekend I had on them! If you dream about a ski, it's gotta be the one right? Right????
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@TiffAlt There should be plenty of carvers in a length that would work for you down the road when you're wanting to buy one, but at your size junior race skis would be an option too. I only didn't mention them since you're so new to skiing, and tbh while they're good for learning to carve on, they're also not the most forgiving skis. I didn't get on mine til I was a strong intermediate and even then it took racing lessons and mileage to get a better feel for them. The tail is very flat (no rocker) and can be grabby. But they are very narrow and reward good technique.
 

TheGreenOne

Angel Diva
yeah, as @xxs_skier and @shadoj said that calculator is giving stupid shorts lengths. I wouldn't call myself intermediate or expert, but if I put intermediate I get 135-141 and expert gets me 140-146. My junior slalom skis are 150 and I wouldn't say they're too long at all.
I can't see you on a 136. Well fine, 136 if you exclusively park and jump rails.
 

scandium

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think those calculators start getting iffy for petite people. It seems too short, but I have zero experience to back that up as I'm still a beginner. Maybe someone else can chime in? @tinymoose
I think the calculator is way off for shorter women and maybe based on more camber in skis? I'm getting sub-150 lengths recommended to me as standard for all-mountain with a maximum of 154cm! I would consider that in a pure piste/race ski, or the older Kenjas, but with nearly every all-mountain ski I'm firmly in the high-150s camp (I put in 158cm tall on a good morning, 120lb, intermediate who likes longer and more aggressive skiing)
 

TiffAlt

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Honest question - anyone else find it a bit weird that they have calculators like that for anyone above a beginner? I mean, if you have to use ask what height ski you should use, doesn't that mean you are just starting out and thus a beginner? Maybe you can make an argument for an intermediate, but advanced? Wouldn't you be more familiar with your preferences by then? Though I guess it could be considered a tool meant to cater to those who are coming back to the sport and are only familiar with straight skis? Hmm
 

santacruz skier

Angel Diva
I don't pay any attention to the calculator for size. My skis are all in the 150's range, actually 156-158 range and they are appropriate for me. I'm older, 5'1 @ 105, advanced skier.
 

leia1979

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Honest question - anyone else find it a bit weird that they have calculators like that for anyone above a beginner? I mean, if you have to use ask what height ski you should use, doesn't that mean you are just starting out and thus a beginner? Maybe you can make an argument for an intermediate, but advanced? Wouldn't you be more familiar with your preferences by then? Though I guess it could be considered a tool meant to cater to those who are coming back to the sport and are only familiar with straight skis? Hmm

Maybe it's for people like my mom that only buy new skis every 20+ years. Her previous skis were like 190s, and then got "new" ones 15+ years ago that are 160s.

I think that calculator runs short in general. I thought my old full camber 151s were kinda short, but the calculator gave me 150!
 

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