Boots, Alignment & Harb Camps

[Dtrick924]

@Christy and I derailed @MissySki's boot saga so I thought I'd start a new thread to discuss alignment at Harb Ski Systems Camps. Sorry for the multi-quotes and wall of text.

Not to derail too much about alignment but I just attended a ski camp at Arapahoe Basin, CO run by Harb Ski Systems. Part of the camp price included alignment. They measure you in the shop and then check your on snow alignment while you are skiing at camp. That's how I found out I was knock-kneed on both sides. If you do need alignment they do custom foot beds and boot plating to correct it.

Of course now I'm getting ankle pressure from the new alignment, in addition to the foot part of my stock liner packing out after 4 season (a puny 60 ski days). I'm working on getting my liners adjusted so that I have my comfy boots back.

I have an appointment with my boot fitter in Worcester, MA to try and get myself straightened out. I tried a pair of intuition liners while in CO but despite 6 hours of shop work they aren't any better than my stock liners.

My knock knees are completely gone. I am canted out 1.5 degrees on each leg. It has improved my ability to balance on my edges and I A-frame much less often although it still creeps in occasionally. Matching my edge angles is still a work in progress. I do need to find out if I can adjust my cuff angle as that needs to move a bit inward to match my boot sole angles.

I had heat molded superfeet in my boots and they did a little grinding on them so that I could roll/tip my ankle to the side more easily when l put my skis on edge.

Wow, that Harb Camp sounds really interesting. https://harbskisystems.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=category&virtuemart_category_id=10
Here's what they do:

An assessment of your alignment is part of the camp. The on-snow balance assessment will take place during the lesson hours, while a complete indoor assessment will take place on Tuesday and Wednesday afternoons, outside of the lesson times. Any participants wishing to make changes to their equipment as a result of the assessment will be accommodated on a first-come, first-serve basis outside of the lesson hours.

There will be a maximum of six skiers per group to ensure significant personal attention.

Footbed and alignment "pre-day"

If you would like the complete indoor alignment assessment before camp starts, or if you think you might want new boots, we encourage you to come to camp at least one day early. Indoor alignment sessions for campers are offered at our Dumont Ski Shop on the days prior to camp. Contact us for more information.

It looks like the intermediate/advance one that would be appropriate for me already happened for the year. (You can't do the intensives without having done a basic course first.) Does anyone know of anything like this offered elsewhere? Maybe I should post in a new thread so everyone sees this...

I have to warn you that Harb is a bit of a controversial figure in the ski teaching world and disagrees with/teaches different technique than PSIA/CSIA. Trying his new system completely changed my skiing for the better but it is definitely something you have to commit to. I did the Green/Blue camp last year and the Short Turn camp this year. I personally preferred the gentler terrain at Grandby Ranch where the Green/Blue Camp is held. Even A-Basin's green trails were a little steep for my comfort when doing drills.

That Green/Blue camp is coming up but when I am in Beaver Creek. @Dtrick924 what level skier are you in general (or, what were you before your first camp)?

I have heard the name Harb but didn't know he was controversial. I just did a little googling and see that he uses different terminology and methods. I have no idea if this would be good for me or not--I guess I'd have to do a lot more reading up--but I really really want a significant alignment component in a camp.

Prior to attending Harb camps I had been attempting to learn PMTS for about 3 seasons with 10-15 days per season. I learned to ski as a kid using PSIA technique and have been skiing on and off for 25 years. I described myself as a terminal intermediate. I could make mostly parallel turns with a bit of a wedge/stem at the start of my turns but hadn't made any real progress with my skiing in years. If the snow was good I was comfortable on groomed eastern blue and black terrain if it wasn't too steep. I stayed away from bumps, trees and anything steep. I was and am a timid skier who doesn't like too go too fast.

I got into PMTS through my father who had Lito's Break Through on Skis books and tapes and discovered Harald Harb through him.

After attending PMTS camp my wedge is starting to disappear and I am getting more comfortable on steeper terrain and skiing a bit faster and more smoothly. I've also started to try bump skiing which is still hilariously bad but I am able to be more calm and relaxed as I am side slipping my way down the slope

I'm pretty sure that you could do an in shop alignment without doing a camp if you were in the area. Being able to test it on snow during camp is really nice though. They measure your feet and legs in the shop and then use different shims while skiing to test things out. Lots of one footed drills to see if you can balance on an edge or if you fall inside or outside depending on your alignment. If you wanted to do the on snow alignment without camp it might be possible to do it via a private lesson on the hill with a Harb instructor.

His youtube channel can give you some idea of what the skiing is like. It definitely looked weird to me at first. https://www.youtube.com/user/skiwhh

 

[Jilly]

For some of us...what does PMTS stand for?

 

[Christy]

Great idea to start a new thread. Your story is interesting. I think I'm on my 9th season, and I just feel like, despite the fact I do camps and lessons, everything is so much harder than it should be. I haven't progressed as much as I'd expect to, and it's always 2 steps forward, one step back. Or one forward, one back. This year, with my boot issues, it just seems like one back. I have a good bootfitter but as he has said many times, he can't see me ski, so there is only so much he can do. At the very least I would love to have someone do an alignment assessment, on the snow and off, with as much focus on it as these camps have.

I'm pretty sure that you could do an in shop alignment without doing a camp if you were in the area.

So, where would that in shop alignment be? I see the camps are at Grandby Ranch and A Basin (and Austria...).

 

[contesstant]

Great idea to start a new thread. Your story is interesting. I think I'm on my 9th season, and I just feel like, despite the fact I do camps and lessons, everything is so much harder than it should be. I haven't progressed as much as I'd expect to, and it's always 2 steps forward, one step back. Or one forward, one back. This year, with my boot issues, it just seems like one back. I have a good bootfitter but as he has said many times, he can't see me ski, so there is only so much he can do. At the very least I would love to have someone do an alignment assessment, on the snow and off, with as much focus on it as these camps have.



So, where would that in shop alignment be? I see the camps are at Grandby Ranch and A Basin (and Austria...).

This is how I feel, too! I think learning as an adult makes it that much harder.

 

[Christy]

This is how I feel, too! I think learning as an adult makes it that much harder.

Definitely. But I have known other skiers--my last instructor at Roxy Camp, for example--who learned at my age or older and are beautiful skiers. I really feel stuck, like, something is just not clicking with me--maybe I'm not responding to the way I've been taught, or maybe alignment issues are making things hard. Even the last few years when I liked my boots and was skiing more difficult stuff, I still had pretty substantial issues with body efficiency and form. I hadn't really thought about alignment much before, because I know everyone has their own physical issues and for god's sake, if Paralympic skiers can ski without vision or missing a leg, then what's my problem? But after my bootfitter told me that about a third of his clients get stuck due to body issues, and that he would put me in that category for things that he identified (though he didn't make it sound hopeless, he talked about rolfing and corrective exercises), I have been really wondering about alignment.

 

[contesstant]

I feel stuck, too! Same thing--something's missing! My right turns are not the same as my left turns, my feet don't feel the same doing short turns on easier terrain, let alone bigger, traversing turns on steeps! It's annoying, isn't it?!

 

[SkiBam]

For some of us...what does PMTS stand for?

I think it's Primary Movements Teaching System (though I could be wrong). I've read a bit about it and tried some of the tips - some of which helped me a lot. It's too bad there's such a controversy over it as I think some of the teaching is useful. Google it and you'll find lots of info.

 

[Christy]

Without having read anything about it yet, I feel like in general, there's more than one way to skin a cat. If I took a camp that used PMTS, and I didn't love it, then I just wouldn't keep using those techniques. I have a new Pilates teacher who wants me to breathe in a different way than I've ever been taught in my 10+ years of Pilates; it seems odd, but why not give it a try? If it doesn't work for me I'll go back to my old way.

 

[Dtrick924]

For some of us...what does PMTS stand for?

@SkiBam is right. PMTS stands for Primary Movements Teaching System. You might also hear it referred to as Direct Parallel because they don't teach the wedge to beginners learning to ski.

So, where would that in shop alignment be? I see the camps are at Grandby Ranch and A Basin (and Austria...).

@Christy Their shop is in Dumont, CO which is about 45 minutes from Denver right off 1-70. Most of their camps are at Arapahoe Basin.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

I really feel stuck, like, something is just not clicking with me--maybe I'm not responding to the way I've been taught, or maybe alignment issues are making things hard. Even the last few years when I liked my boots and was skiing more difficult stuff, I still had pretty substantial issues with body efficiency and form.

I feel the same way much of the time. Despite taking tons of lessons I feel like I'm not progressing as fast as I'd like. It's not that I don't understand what my instructors are telling me--I do, I just can't seem to execute it. I mean, I don't expect it to be "easy" to learn to be a great skier, and I've certainly improved a lot since I started skiing in 2006 but there are some things I just can't seem to grasp. I have 2 regular instructors who have noticed a slight tendency to ride the inside edges of my skis and a 3rd one who doesn't see a problem (who is also a boot fitter). I think this causes me to start many turns with a slight wedge or stem even though I don't feel like I'm doing it. It annoys the snot out of me; doesn't seem to stop me from skiing most of what I want to including bumps and steeper terrain but it's annoying to see that happening. When I've tried to address any canting issues in 2 different shops, nothing shows up when I'm not on skis!

 

[contesstant]

I'm forcing myself into the more advanced group of the women's clinic tomorrow. I seem to always fall in between the intermediate and advanced groups. Something tells me I'm selling myself short.

I've also set up a private lesson for next week with one major goal to analyze my stance, alignment, etc. A nice perk of my season pass is a $99 two-hour private lesson. I might also use my husband's

 

[Christy]

That IS a nice perk! Almost as nice as those Sun Valley days you get. Is the lesson with someone that you know is good analyzing alignment, gear, etc?

 

[contesstant]

That IS a nice perk! Almost as nice as those Sun Valley days you get. Is the lesson with someone that you know is good analyzing alignment, gear, etc?

Yes, it sure is!

 

[Skisailor]

@SkiBam is right. PMTS stands for Primary Movements Teaching System. You might also hear it referred to as Direct Parallel because they don't teach the wedge to beginners learning to ski.

I am somewhat familiar with the Harold Harb controversy but hadn't heard of "PMTS" per se. But if it is true that PMTS equates to "Direct to Parallel" - well I have experience in that realm.

The Direct to Parallel method is a lot more problematic than just skipping the wedge, IMHO. It's great for moving new skiers quickly into parallel turning and, early on, they may progress faster than those who go through the wedge stage. But it then creates a slew of terminal intermediates who have to un-learn its primary movements to venture into steeps, bumps, trees, etc.

I believe PSIA does not endorse it for this reason since they have a goal of trying to minimize the teaching of things that then have to be un-learned.

So what is this wrong movement? Direct to parallel relies on major upper body rotation and "look where you want to go" head movements that are the exact opposite of what allows you to get off the groomed and ski the harder terrain - - i.e. legs turning beneath a quiet upper body that faces downhill.

I don't know whether this is the same as PMTS or not. But I have seen Direct to Parallel taught and it really did give me pause. The upper body rotation it teaches is exactly the movement that instructors spend so much of their time trying to correct when teaching "terminal intermediates".

 

[contesstant]

Yes, it sure is!

Meaning, yes to both!!

 

[marzNC]

I am somewhat familiar with the Harold Harb controversy but hadn't heard of "PMTS" per se. But if it is true that PMTS equates to "Direct to Parallel" - well I have experience in that realm.

The Direct to Parallel method is a lot more problematic than just skipping the wedge, IMHO. It's great for moving new skiers quickly into parallel turning and, early on, they may progress faster than those who go through the wedge stage. But it then creates a slew of terminal intermediates who have to un-learn its primary movements to venture into steeps, bumps, trees, etc.

I believe PSIA does not endorse it for this reason since they have a goal of trying to minimize the teaching of things that then have to be un-learned.

So what is this wrong movement? Direct to parallel relies on major upper body rotation and "look where you want to go" head movements that are the exact opposite of what allows you to get off the groomed and ski the harder terrain - - i.e. legs turning beneath a quiet upper body that faces downhill.

I don't know whether this is the same as PMTS or not. But I have seen Direct to Parallel taught and it really did give me pause. The upper body rotation it teaches is exactly the movement that instructors spend so much of their time trying to correct when teaching "terminal intermediates".

As I understand it, PMTS is more than direct-to-parallel. I know the ORDA ski resorts (Whiteface, Gore, Belleayre) in NY are doing "Parallel from the Start" and they are PSIA ski schools.

 

[Dtrick924]

PMTS actually teaches counter-rotation, also called counter-acting.

They teach turning by tipping the feet as demonstrated in this sample video.

It's definitely not for everyone though. PMTS teaches almost completely opposite concepts from PSIA/CSIA so you have to be willing to do a lot of unlearning before you progress. No point in changing systems if you're happy with your current skiing ability/progress.

For those in the midwest interested in PMTS, the ski school at Welch Village in MN just switched their entire ski school to PMTS and had 3 camps this season. https://welchvillage.com/

 

[Skisailor]

As I understand it, PMTS is more than direct-to-parallel. I know the ORDA ski resorts (Whiteface, Gore, Belleayre) in NY are doing "Parallel from the Start" and they are PSIA ski schools.

I know Direct to Parallel was taught within PSIA in the not too distant past but thought it had moved away from that method as an organization. Maybe it's more of a PSIA regional decision.

Hope some of our more experienced instructors can weigh in!

ETA: Those PMTS videos look very different from the Direct to Parallel method I observed being taught and was talking about . . .

 

[Jilly]

We have "fast track to parallel". I need to look at everything before I comment more.

 

[Dtrick924]

PMTS is based on 1 footed balance while tipping the feet, the phantom move as Harald Harb calls it. It uses 5 essential movements. 3 lower body: tipping, flexing, fore/aft balance and 2 upper body: counter-acting and counter-balancing.

Phantom Move

Tipping

Flexing

Fore/Aft Balance

Counteracting/Counterbalancing

Here's a longer talk Harald Harb did at Whistler on PMTS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5-_YUdBAVs

John Clendenin at Aspen has adapted PMTS for his bump camps which he calls the Clendenin Ski Method. https://clendeninmethod.com/

The Brave Ski Mom wrote several blog posts about the Clendenin ski camp.
https://braveskimom.com/small-motio...door-ski-lesson-changed-my-turns-giveaway-too

https://braveskimom.com/aspen-ski-camp-the-preliminaries

@Christy I'll have to see if I can dig out my video footage from last year's PMTS camp. I haven't gotten this year's edited footage back yet. It's really amazing to be able to analyze video footage of your skiing. In general it helps to exaggerate the movements while learning. You can be convinced that you are working as hard as you can on a drill and then nothing really shows up on video.

It is also much easier to learn on narrow waisted carving skis with minimal or no rocker. Skinnier skis make it easier to keep your feet close and tip the skis on edge. My skis are 70 mm under foot and many people are as narrow as 66 mm. They recommend nothing wider than 72 mm for beginning PMTS skiers. At my last camp, a PMTS never-ever started out on a pair of skis 84 mm under foot and was struggling with the drills. The instructor switched her to a pair of Head Super Shape iSpeeds (66 mm) and the drills became much easier for her.

There is an all mountain camp, the Superblue and a Mogul Intenisve camp, but most camps take place on green/blue groomed terrain.

@Christy, I see your profile says you are in Seattle. There is a PMTS bootfitter, Jay Peterson in Portland, Oregon who does alignment at Mt. Hood. https://skiersynergy.com