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Bindings and bootfitting?

gingerjess

Angel Diva
I'm scheduling an appointment to get fitted for my own set of boots for next season and was wondering—should I bring my skis with me to get the bindings adjusted for whatever set of boots I end up in? Or should I just focus on the boots first, and get the bindings set up when the season gets a little nearer?
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
I'm scheduling an appointment to get fitted for my own set of boots for next season and was wondering—should I bring my skis with me to get the bindings adjusted for whatever set of boots I end up in? Or should I just focus on the boots first, and get the bindings set up when the season gets a little nearer?

Can’t hurt to bring them and do it all at once so you’re ready to go! Especially this season, who knows what services will be available once the season starts.
 

Tvan

Angel Diva
I agree with @MissySki - take your skis and get the bindings adjusted now. Also, remember to take whatever socks you intend to ski in to your fitting!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
^What @Tvan says. Take all the skis you own; they should adjust them for free, no matter how many pairs you own; this is for good will so you'll be a loyal customer. Take your favorite ski socks; don't wear them there, put them on when you get there. Wear shorts so the bootfitter can see your knees without you having to hoist up tight legged pants that don't want to go that high. If you have video of yourself skiing, load it on your camera phone and show the bootfitter that. Any good bootfitter would be eager to see how you ski so as to find the best type of ski boot for you.

If you currently own boots, bring them too.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The bootfitter should not be a high school kid working in the shop. You should be served by a certified bootfitter who knows how to fit boots. This is early season, so they should not be hard-pressed to find a bootfitter to work withyou. If you suspect you've been given an unknowledgeable seller to do the bootfitting, ask for the boss or leave. Really. Boots-too-big are all too plentiful. Too big boots (in length, in width, or in height over the foot) ruin your chance of firm control over your skis. You won't know you have been sold too-big boots until you've skied them for a few weeks when the liners pack out and you're left with loose fitting boots ... and wobbly skis.

In other words, insist on a professional fitting so that your boots will "perform" well.

The bootfitter should bring you two or three pairs to try on after evaluating your feet and talking to you about your skiing. The first thing this person should do is pull the liners out of each boot you try on and have you stand in the empty shells with your ski socks on. This is a "shell fit." The bootfitter will look down into the boot shells and check how much empty space there is behind your heel, to the sides of your heel, and at the top of your instep. The boot needs to be snug in these areas, snugger than you expect when the liner is back inside the boot.

No one can tell if it's snug enough when the cushy liner is in there because when it's brand new it fills in the empty spaces.

If the bootfitter doesn't do a shell-fit, the bootfitter is profiling you as a not-serious skier and you are getting the "short cut" version of bootfitting. Cut the visit short and go elsewhere.
 
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gingerjess

Angel Diva
Thanks everyone for all the excellent advice! I really appreciate it; I'm still trying to figure everything out, so it's good to get some guidance from the pros! :clap:

Can’t hurt to bring them and do it all at once so you’re ready to go! Especially this season, who knows what services will be available once the season starts.

Oh, that's a good call! Makes me especially glad to have done the Phantom treatment so I don't have to worry about waxing.

Also, remember to take whatever socks you intend to ski in to your fitting!

Thanks for the advice! Some of the posts in other threads suggested bringing the thinnest ski socks I have—if I'm likely to wear heavier-weight socks during the season, is that still the way to go? I don't imagine getting fitted in thin socks and then wearing the boots in thicker socks would make a huge difference, but you never know.

Take all the skis you own... If you currently own boots, bring them too.

Haha, I guess this is where my newness to the sport makes things easier. One pair of skis, and I don't own boots yet.

The bootfitter should not be a high school kid working in the shop. You should be served by a certified bootfitter who knows how to fit boots. This is early season, so they should not be hard-pressed to find a bootfitter to work withyou. If you suspect you've been given an unknowledgeable seller to do the bootfitting, ask for the boss or leave. Really. Boots-too-big are all too plentiful. Too big boots (in length, in width, or in height over the foot) ruin your chance of firm control over your skis. You won't know you have been sold too-big boots until you've skied them for a few weeks when the liners pack out and you're left with loose fitting boots ... and wobbly skis.

In other words, insist on a professional fitting so that your boots will "perform" well.

The bootfitter should bring you two or three pairs to try on after evaluating your feet and talking to you about your skiing. The first thing this person should do is pull the liners out of each boot you try on and have you stand in the empty shells with your ski socks on. This is a "shell fit." The bootfitter will look down into the boot shells and check how much empty space there is behind your heel, to the sides of your heel, and at the top of your instep. The boot needs to be snug in these areas, snugger than you expect when the liner is back inside the boot.

No one can tell if it's snug enough when the cushy liner is in there because when it's brand new it fills in the empty spaces.

If the bootfitter doesn't do a shell-fit, the bootfitter is profiling you as a not-serious skier and you are getting the "short cut" version of bootfitting. Cut the visit short and go elsewhere.

Good to know! I'm not too worried as I'm going to a place other Divas (and some in-person friends) have recommended (California Ski Company in Berkeley), but I'll keep an eye out for the signs that it's time to go elsewhere you mentioned.

I have one followup question. Right now I've only done resort skiing, but I could see doing ski touring in the future. My bindings support GripWalk, so would it be a good idea to ask about AT boots that have both GW for alpine bindings and AT tech inserts? Or should I stick to alpine-only options, and get a set of AT boots fitted later should the need arise?
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Some of the posts in other threads suggested bringing the thinnest ski socks I have—if I'm likely to wear heavier-weight socks during the season, is that still the way to go? I don't imagine getting fitted in thin socks and then wearing the boots in thicker socks would make a huge difference, but you never know.
What do you mean by "heavier-weight" socks? The general guideline with well-fitted boots is that you don't need heavy socks to keep your feet warm.

Have you read about boot liners being "packed out."? When boots are brand new, they will be pretty snug. After a certain number of days, the liners will not be quite as thick as before. So the idea behind wearing very thin socks (long) is to get a good snug fit from the start. After breaking in the boots, medium weight ski socks will feel quite comfortable.

When trying out options, ask if a pair of boots have a heat-moldable liner or not. Not necessary but if your budget allows, it can be nice.
 

gingerjess

Angel Diva
What do you mean by "heavier-weight" socks? The general guideline with well-fitted boots is that you don't need heavy socks to keep your feet warm.

So, I have Smartwool PhD ski socks in weights ranging from "Ultra Light" to "Medium". I guess that's what I mean by "heavier-weight". And that's good to know about the warmth factor—that the boots should be what's providing insulation. That's not something I realized.

Have you read about boot liners being "packed out."? When boots are brand new, they will be pretty snug. After a certain number of days, the liners will not be quite as thick as before. So the idea behind wearing very thin socks (long) is to get a good snug fit from the start. After breaking in the boots, medium weight ski socks will feel quite comfortable.

Ahhh, I had heard that term, but didn't make the connection to using different thicknesses of socks. That makes sense!

When trying out options, ask if a pair of boots have a heat-moldable liner or not. Not necessary but if your budget allows, it can be nice.

Sounds good! I have oddly-shaped feet (very wide, and a bone spur on top of one), so the more moldability the better. Thinking about that actually brings up another question—I've seen discussion about custom footbeds. Is that something I should look into as part of the bootfitting, or is that a "use the stock ones for a while and see how they do first" kind of purchase?
 

Tvan

Angel Diva
@gingerjess - I ski in very thin smartwool socks. If my feet get cold, I add a layer of knee high pantyhose over my socks. Your mileage may vary, but in general, the advice is thin socks, as @marzNC says.

There are some folks with chronically cold feet who use boot heaters. I don't have that issue.
 

NewEnglandSkier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
If you're after a boot that will allow you good control over your skis for longer than just a few days on snow (before they pack out), make sure to ask for a performance fit. The fitter will probably ask you questions about what level skier you are and type of terrain you spend most of your time etc.
Since you mention you have wider feet, this may not be problem for you, but if you want a tighter fit then don't let them put you into a boot that's too wide, as then you'll find they are too big after a few days of skiing. Lots of fitters seem to err on the side of giving people a more recreational fit which is fine if you only ski a couple days/year but if you want to ski more then you end up noticing the boot will feel too big fairly soon.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Thinking about that actually brings up another question—I've seen discussion about custom footbeds. Is that something I should look into as part of the bootfitting, or is that a "use the stock ones for a while and see how they do first" kind of purchase?
For my first pair of "modern" boots that I bought when I was an intermediate and mostly skiing with a beginner kid, I didn't bother with custom footbeds. However, I did pay around $25 for Superfeet footbeds. The stock footbeds that come in ski boots don't provide much support at all.

By the time I was ready for the next pair of boots, I planned on getting custom heat-moldable footbeds. It was well worth the investment. I moved them to the next pair of boots 4-5 years later. Note that I started skiing a lot of days, so that's why I'm on the third pair of boots in a dozen years. I also improved a lot so needed more of a performance boot than a recreational boot.

There are $40-50 heat moldable footbeds that some boot fitters carry. My adult niece got a pair for some very lightly used boots that I bought for her. She skis very little but rental boots never fit decently. The look on her face after the boot fitter got the one foot that had a small issue was priceless. She has high arches because she's been a very good amateur ballet dancer for a long time.

In short, it depends. :smile:
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
So, I have Smartwool PhD ski socks in weights ranging from "Ultra Light" to "Medium". I guess that's what I mean by "heavier-weight". And that's good to know about the warmth factor—that the boots should be what's providing insulation. That's not something I realized.
I would bring a variety of socks. See what the boot fitter suggests.

It's not exactly that the boots are insulated. It's that a well-fitted boot lets your feet and lower leg breath, so for people with good circulation their feet don't get as cold without having to resort to thicker socks. In some cases, thick socks cut off circulation.

My feet don't generally get cold. I have more the opposite problem. My feet sweat even when it's very cold. Once my socks get damp, then my feet get cold. I often take my boots off at lunch time to let my socks dry out a bit, or even change to dry socks.
 

fgor

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Sounds good! I have oddly-shaped feet (very wide, and a bone spur on top of one), so the more moldability the better. Thinking about that actually brings up another question—I've seen discussion about custom footbeds. Is that something I should look into as part of the bootfitting, or is that a "use the stock ones for a while and see how they do first" kind of purchase?

My personal experience with this: I bought off the shelf, aftermarket footbeds for my first pair of ski boots. The boots weren't really well fitted though and turned out to be miles too big. The off-the-shelf footbeds still helped a little.

So my actual experience with a good bootfitter: I hadn't intended to buy custom footbeds when I went in to get fitted for the boots, but we spent a long time discussing the issues with my feet and the arch pain I was having in most boots, and my fitter told me that although he could do his best to do modifications to the boot to improve those issues, his opinion was that springing for custom footbeds would be an instant fix to most of them. So I agreed to buy custom footbeds as well and they've been fantastic.

In summary: ask your fitter if they recommend custom footbeds for your specific feet. but I'm a fan of them :smile:

Good luck!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Terms to know when buying boots:

liner and shell: A ski boot has two parts, a plastic shell and a squishy liner. The liner serves to hold the foot stable inside the shell, and provides insulation so the foot won't suffer from the cold.

pack out: Liners are somewhat elastic. They mold to the skier's foot to fill the gaps between the foot and the shell. They get squished thin and stay thin in the places where they are pressed continually against the shell. Almost all liners provided with boots pack out. In an ideal world, the boot would be too tight at first (but not insufferably so) so that when the liner packs out the boot fits perfectly.

comfort fit: This is the fit a buyer gets when the buyer says comfort matters more than anything. The buyer often ends up with boots two sizes too big, which feel great in the store but will soon feel sloppy on the feet when the liners pack out. Such skiers will end up wearing two pairs of thick socks eventually, which don't solve the problem because socks are squishy and move around. They may seek help getting their boots to fit later in a shop. Bootfitters will glue shims to the outside of the liners in an attempt to stabilize the feet inside the boots. Often skiers end up buying another new boot that is one or two sizes smaller when the bootfitter tells them they can't fix the problem.

performance fit: This is when the buyer convinces the bootfitter that the boots should enhance the skis' performance. Bootfitters who have gone through training are capable of doing a performance fit, but not shop workers who have learned on the job over a short period of time working there. This fit will feel unusually tight in the shop, and causes buyers who are unfamiliar with performance fitted boots to think the boots are too tight. The bootfitter chooses a size that is quite snug in all three dimensions, length, width, and height, then grinds indentations into the shell, or punches outward bulges in the shell, to make room for bony bumps on the feet. Skiers choosing a performance fit need to wear very thin socks, not only in the shop but on the slopes. The liners should keep their feet warm. Thick socks will make a performance fit impossible to get into.

recreational fit: This is the fit that's half way between a performance fit and a comfort fit. When the liner packs out, the boot will allow the foot to move a bit inside and the skis will wobble as a result. Often skiers resort to thicker socks and/or thick shims glued by bootfitters to the liners (for a fee) to help keep the foot stable and get the skis under control.

shell fit: This is when the bootfitter takes the liner out of the shell and has the buyer step into the boot to check how much room is in there for the liner to take up. This step in bootfitting allows the bootfitter to choose a boot that will match the anatomy of the buyer's feet lengthwise, widthwise, and heightwise. Bootfitters may skip this step if they profile a skier as wanting a comfort fit.

grinding and punching: This is what a certified bootfitter does to make room in the shell for bony protrusions on the feet. This is not necessary with a comfort fit, and sometimes not needed for a recreational fit. It is often necessary for a performance fit, and should be free. Buyers usually can return to the shop for more adjustments of this sort for the first year after purchasing, and these adjustments also should be free. The need for such adjustments doesn't show up clearly until the skier has skied the boots for a while.

cuff canting or cuff alignment: The bootfitter will adjust the cuff so its tilt lines up with the lower leg's tilt, if the boot permits. This is free.

boot sole canting: The bootfitter, for a fee, may suggest adding wedges to the inside or outside of the boot soles. This is needed if the skier is very knock-kneed or very bow-legged, or if the skier is seeking high performance from the boots. The purpose of wedges is to help the skier keep both skis at the same edge angle to the snow.

aftermarket or custom footbed: The footbed provided with boots is flat. There is no arch support nor heel support. An aftermarket footbed can provide these supports if it matches the anatomy of the foot. Custom footbeds match each foot exactly. The purpose of such footbeds is to keep the foot securely in place in the bottom of the boot and to stop the foot from rolling left-right. They can help eliminate foot fatigue and foot pain if the buyer is prone to such things.

boot heaters and chemical toe warmers: These are what skiers with naturally cold feet use to keep their feet warm. Thick socks do not work very well.

thin socks: All skiers should wear the thinnest socks they own when buying new boots. Yes, some people even go so far as to wear compression socks or socks that fit like tights.
 

gingerjess

Angel Diva
Wow. I'm just blown away by the depth of information here! All of this is so incredibly useful, especially @liquidfeet's in-depth glossary of the relevant terminology. I feel really well-equipped to have a conversation about what I want from a boot and what I see as potential challenges. Thank you so much, everyone!
 

Tvan

Angel Diva
+1 on asking about custom foot beds. Mine made a world of difference in my skiing!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
+1 on asking about custom foot beds. Mine made a world of difference in my skiing!
Same here. Wouldn't ski without them. But there are some people who have had footbeds and now prefer the flat interior footbed that comes with the boots. Personal foot anatomy determines this.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@gingerjess, be aware that the bootfitter may profile you as a candidate for a comfort fit. This is your first boot purchase. You are young and female. The bootfitter may push you to buy a boot that would satisfy most young, female, first purchasers. Just beware. It's a thing. It happened to me multiple times, with highly recommended bootfitters. It took a special bootfitter to realize I really meant what I said I wanted. I was old, female, and relatively new to skiing when those other bootfitters put me into boots-too-wide in the forefoot, too tall over the instep for my low-volume feet, and too long, with wide heels.

Oh there's another term I forgot in that list above.

volume: This is the word for how tall the boot shell is over your foot. It also includes how much air space there will be on top of your foot right where your lower leg rises upward. If your boot has too much volume for your foot's anatomy there will be air there, and you will have trouble tilting the skis to edge them with your feet. There is very little range of motion for your foot as you tilt it inside the boot, or as the boot/ski tries to tilt due to the forces of skiing, so most folks don't pay much attention to it. But controlling this tilt is a precision control thing which you will need if you want good control over your skis. If the boot has too much volume for your foot, and leaves air in there, then when you side-slip your skis will lose their edge despite what your feet do and leave you feeling insecure about sideslipping. This happens while making turns too, but so much is going on in turns that most people don't notice that the loss of edge control is coming from boot fit (volume mis-match). Side-slipping can be used to diagnose this issue. I speak from personal experience -- my feet are very low volume, and it took 6-7 boot purchases, all from different bootfitters who had great reputations, for me to find a bootfitter who paid attention to this anatomical issue of mine. Most men do not have low volume feet. Many women do. Just sayin'.
 
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