BackCountry/Uphill/AT/Touring - skiing support thread for newbs!

[echo_VT]

hi,
i'm new to backcountry/uphill/AT/touring this year and i just did my first ascent up Hunter Mtn with hubs. it was 4F out and bitterly cold. i carried a pack to "train" for it. we ascended and descended 1700 ft in about 1h 25m - i'm looking to be a little faster, maybe 1h 15m.

if you're experienced, do you have any tips with regards to transitions at the top where it is windy and cold? i know i should be fast, but i am fairly slow. maybe b/c it is my first time. if you have a particular order you prefer to do things, i'm interested.

also, do you have any must-have gear items? i will be going out west for an AIARE course level 1 at Steven's Pass with the Mountain School. They told me I must have a hard shell pant, but everyone I'm speaking to says a soft shell pant (or a hybrid soft/hard shell) will do just fine. i really don't want to spend $499-$599 on a hard shell bib with full zip. i may just borrow a friend's as he's on the small side and i can probably fit into his more than hubs (he's about 5'7" and hubs is 6').

i'm also interested in bringing my helmet for the descent, but hubs said not to bring it. i think he's crazy.

in any case, are there other must-have or must-know tips? i want to not hate this (going uphill is really daunting when all you see are steeps!) so give me all you got

 

[skiwest]

I'm new to backcountry skiing too and am taking AIARE I next weekend. I've been wondering about that helmet question - I always ski with one normally and it seems weird not to for the course, but is it just going to weigh my pack down even more?

ETA: How hard was it going uphill compared to hiking? I have only tried out my skins for 10 minutes or so and it wasn't that steep, so it was hard to get an idea. I'm trying to get a sense of how hard my course is going to be.

 

[echo_VT]

@skiwest nice, who are you taking AIARE I with? i know of only two places in the pacific NW, Mountain School and American Alpine Institute. i was discouraged from looking at colorado or utah.

i'm asking the helmet question to the folks at mountain school who i signed up with. i'll be going on Jan 20 weekend.

it's tough i'm not going to lie. i think the proper way is to slide/glide uphill, similar to XC skiing. you cover a lot more ground with a longer stride, so each step is like a kick or thrust upward. the skins hold you so you don't slide back. i have been watching a few YouTube vids from well known backcountry skiiers on skills and tips. specifically i'm looking at kick turns b/c it can be hard with a heavy pack or up steep terrain. so i'm watching what i can. i might have hubs practice a few of these with me so i become a bit more familiar.

 

[echo_VT]

when i'm on steep terrain, he's (hubs) already taught me how to roll my ankles out so that the entire ski can grip the mountain for a sufficient stride up. the part of the ski that grips the slope is right under your foot, as well as the rear part of the ski - making sure that adheres well allows for you to have confidence for the next glide forward.

 

[DeweySki]

Such good questions! ~From my perspective~ as a relatively new BC skier:

--I've never heard the hard-shell pant requirement?? Seems odd. Wear whatever pants are comfortable for you, keeping in mind that the range of motion required in BC skiing is bigger than your average day at the resort and that you will spend a least a little time sitting in snow while you transition and while you eat lunch/snacks/break.

--The AIARE I course I took required a helmet for day 3 (The day you actually go out in the field). When I go out with my partner I am 50/50--sometimes I wear it and sometimes I don't. I wore it this weekend cause it's early season, we haven't had any snow in awhile, and conditions were variable. Was super glad I did since I ended up losing and edge and sliding for about 100 feet, hitting small trees along the way.

--1700 ft in 1h 25m is good! Don't beat yourself up. I can only go about 1000ft/hour, especially at elevations above 9000 or 10,000 ft. The important thing is communicating with your group how fast you can/would like to move and when you are getting tired. My AIARE instructor, who skis 100+ days a year in the backcountry says his group usually aims for 1000 ft/hour, with 45-minutes hiking/15-break intervals.

--As far as going up hill, it's all about efficiency. I too prefer fewer, longer strides. One of the guys I was with this weekend advised me to put a little pause at the top of each glide before I transfer weight. This made it feel more like a stair stepper, so I'm not sure about efficiency, but I will continue to experiment. While I am skinning I just remind myself, "Keep the entire ski on the ground" and this helps me not get too choppy with my steps.

 

[echo_VT]

Such good questions! ~From my perspective~ as a relatively new BC skier:

--I've never heard the hard-shell pant requirement?? Seems odd. Wear whatever pants are comfortable for you, keeping in mind that the range of motion required in BC skiing is bigger than your average day at the resort and that you will spend a least a little time sitting in snow while you transition and while you eat lunch/snacks/break.

that's exactly what my husband said! ok i'll do softshell, and maybe bring a padded seat with me that i take with me when i go bike touring or camping. it's added weight, but i'm sure it would prevent not just getting wet while sitting, but getting cold too.

--The AIARE I course I took required a helmet for day 3 (The day you actually go out in the field). When I go out with my partner I am 50/50--sometimes I wear it and sometimes I don't. I wore it this weekend cause it's early season, we haven't had any snow in awhile, and conditions were variable. Was super glad I did since I ended up losing and edge and sliding for about 100 feet, hitting small trees along the way.

ok i think this means i'm definitely taking it w/me!

--1700 ft in 1h 25m is good! Don't beat yourself up. I can only go about 1000ft/hour, especially at elevations above 9000 or 10,000 ft. The important thing is communicating with your group how fast you can/would like to move and when you are getting tired. My AIARE instructor, who skis 100+ days a year in the backcountry says his group usually aims for 1000 ft/hour, with 45-minutes hiking/15-break intervals.

ah elevation levels are not so high in the NE or mid-atlantic. but i forgot that elevation levels matter. perhaps i take some anti altitude sickness meds with me JIC. i needed them in jackson hole. i wonder if i need them in steven's pass. i shall ask!

--As far as going up hill, it's all about efficiency. I too prefer fewer, longer strides. One of the guys I was with this weekend advised me to put a little pause at the top of each glide before I transfer weight. This made it feel more like a stair stepper, so I'm not sure about efficiency, but I will continue to experiment. While I am skinning I just remind myself, "Keep the entire ski on the ground" and this helps me not get too choppy with my steps.

again exactly what my husband said. i'll also continue to experiment and watch vids of those who do this with regularity. yes i have to force myself to drag the ski. my immediate reaction is to pick up the ski. apparently that's all wasted energy and i will just tire myself out more quickly if i pick up the ski. so i kept having to tell myself - drag your feet! (literally)!

 

[DeweySki]

ah elevation levels are not so high in the NE or mid-atlantic. but i forgot that elevation levels matter. perhaps i take some anti altitude sickness meds with me JIC. i needed them in jackson hole. i wonder if i need them in steven's pass. i shall ask!

Hard to say. According to Google, Steven's Pass is at 4062 and Jackson Hole is at 6237. The good thing is you will have a couple of days to adjust before your field day. And I am guessing, no matter what, you will NOT be the slowest person there. Some snowboarder who doesn't know how his equipment works will always be slower

Did you get a beacon yet?

 

[MrsPlow]

Good to hear about other newbies! Also first year of attempting back country and did AST1 a few weeks ago, very interesting.

Re: helmets - we were told to bring one if we normally wore one. Most ski backpacks have an easy way to attach them, and I don't like to ski without one now.

The one item of clothing I've bought after getting quite cold on the course is a wind-resistant, breathable fleece. I'm hoping that this will keep me warm enough going up hill without sweating - I got chilly going up hill because I was trying not to get too sweaty (if that makes any sense).

The main thing I took away in terms of how to go up-hill was to stand tall, not hunch over, and not to look at the tips of my skis. There were a few of us struggling with how to do it, I was slow but so were some of the others who were younger and fitter than me.

Make sure you understand how your bindings work and how to fix them if they've moved or adjusted themselves (and take a screwdriver and/or pliers - or multitool - that'll let you fix them). Duct-tape is also handy.

 

[Pequenita]

Skinning tips - drag the ski, rather than pick it up; looking up on steeper ascents will help you keep weight on your heels; when you are kick turning, remember you have knees that bend

Transitions - keep one ski on if possible; folding skins in to quarters as I take them off, rather than half, seems to help me deal with unwieldy skins in the wind, also, skip the cheat sheets if it's windy; I think everyone has a system that works for them, in terms of what order to go in.

General - keep your skis on to pee if there is enough snow on the ground that you'll post hole.

I take my helmet. It's warm and there is inevitably a wayward branch in the way.

There are a lot of guides in the PNW who do AIARE and intro to backcountry courses. Here's a really helpful book an acquaintance co-wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Backcountry-Skiing-Touring-Mountaineering-Mountaineers/dp/1594850380

 

[echo_VT]

Hard to say. According to Google, Steven's Pass is at 4062 and Jackson Hole is at 6237. The good thing is you will have a couple of days to adjust before your field day. And I am guessing, no matter what, you will NOT be the slowest person there. Some snowboarder who doesn't know how his equipment works will always be slower

Did you get a beacon yet?

Yes I have a beacon shovel and probe as well as a touring pack (that allow you to mount skis on) as well as those silicone straps! I still feel so unprepared....

 

[echo_VT]

Thank you @MrsPlow for those tips! Yes duck tape helps everything. Anytime I go on a long bike tour or if I travel to go Kiteboarding I’m always bringing it.

 

[echo_VT]

Thank you @Pequenita ! I will be going to do AIARE course level 1 with northwest mountain school

I’m totally getting that book if we don’t already have it...hubs has a lot of books on the subject

 

[echo_VT]

These tips are really helpful especially the transition stuff when it’s cold and windy at the top. I’m going to have to YouTube some of this. Then put it in practice. Thank you for lending your wisdom - if you think of anything more or if you’re a newb like me and have a Q, please keep ‘em coming!!!

 

[Ringrat]

A lot will come with practice, and even in your first few days out you'll figure out a few things that work for you. Watch what other experienced people do, and try a few things.

Regarding clothing: your choice of pants may vary with weather. If you have only one pair of shells, a hardshell pant is the safest bet because it will be bombproof always. Most of the time a softshell pant will probably be fine. I wear goretex softshells, so they're still fully waterproof. I spend WAY less time sitting in snow on a touring day than on a resort day. I sit on my pack or my skis at lunch/snacks and I don't sit at transitions. I spend more time getting my pants snowy while doing snowpack assessment than anything else.

Regarding helmets: this is a personal choice. It's becoming more common for people to wear them. I now have a really lightweight helmet that I don't mind carrying for touring, but I still never take it unless I'm on a Search & Rescue call. Yet, I always ski with a helmet inbounds. *shrug*

My sequence at transitions: pack down a platform under my skis. Take off my pack and layer up (I de-layer last when I'm putting on skins, though). Do up zippers on pants. Take off ONE ski, put the heel piece in ski mode (so the brakes are engaged in case I drop it), and pull the skin. I use keepers almost all the time. Put that ski back on. Do the other ski. Put my boots in ski mode. Ski! Unless I'm on a steep slope to transition I actually prefer to rip my skins with my ski still on, but with my new bindings I have to take my skis off to transition the binding, so I'm getting away from doing that. It no longer saves me the steps of taking off and putting back on my skis. I'm actually much slower in transition this year as I'm still figuring out the new transition.

I prefer to take smaller steps. Each step is more effort with longer steps. For me it's the difference between climbing a set of stairs normally or two-steps-at-a-time...I'll fatigue faster with the big steps.

Other things:
-Practice kick turns! Being bad at these is a good way to have a miserable day on a steep skin track.
-Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain is my favourite book about this kind of stuff
-Outdoor Research (and I'm sure other folks too!) has a good series of videos:

-Don't worry about speed, certainly not at this stage. There are enough things to worry about: route-finding, assessing terrain, constant evaluation of the snowpack, whether you're too hot or cold, how your gear is working for you, kick turns, etc. Speed will come when you're ready. Or, not. I am always the slowest in my group...they know it, I know it, and everyone knows we're going my pace for the day. https://www.powder.com/stories/skiing-as-craft/being-the-slowest-skier-is-very-important/

Most of all - HAVE FUN! Just try to learn as much as you can, on your course and every day in the mountains! I'm off on a 2-night hut trip this weekend.

 

[skiwest]

@skiwest nice, who are you taking AIARE I with? i know of only two places in the pacific NW, Mountain School and American Alpine Institute. i was discouraged from looking at colorado or utah.

i'm asking the helmet question to the folks at mountain school who i signed up with. i'll be going on Jan 20 weekend.

it's tough i'm not going to lie. i think the proper way is to slide/glide uphill, similar to XC skiing. you cover a lot more ground with a longer stride, so each step is like a kick or thrust upward. the skins hold you so you don't slide back. i have been watching a few YouTube vids from well known backcountry skiiers on skills and tips. specifically i'm looking at kick turns b/c it can be hard with a heavy pack or up steep terrain. so i'm watching what i can. i might have hubs practice a few of these with me so i become a bit more familiar.

Alpenglow Expeditions in Tahoe! So much good information got posted to this thread since I was last on - thanks for starting the convo!

 

[skiwest]

Skinning tips - drag the ski, rather than pick it up; looking up on steeper ascents will help you keep weight on your heels; when you are kick turning, remember you have knees that bend

Transitions - keep one ski on if possible; folding skins in to quarters as I take them off, rather than half, seems to help me deal with unwieldy skins in the wind, also, skip the cheat sheets if it's windy; I think everyone has a system that works for them, in terms of what order to go in.

General - keep your skis on to pee if there is enough snow on the ground that you'll post hole.

I take my helmet. It's warm and there is inevitably a wayward branch in the way.

There are a lot of guides in the PNW who do AIARE and intro to backcountry courses. Here's a really helpful book an acquaintance co-wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Backcountry-Skiing-Touring-Mountaineering-Mountaineers/dp/1594850380

Important question - how do you pee while keeping your skis on? I'm actually a little concerned about finding a place to pee if I end up on an exposed slope with all men around during my class...

 

[echo_VT]

thanks @Ringrat about the remarks about speed - going uphill and also transitioning. i was told that i really can't mess around esp. if we're aiming to do a certain number of climbing for the day. so that makes sense not really sitting much at all.

and i've watched the series of vids, they're quite good, but i feel like they are a little over my head too. yes i'm really anxious to practice kick turns - so i'll be sure to make it a big part of what i do next time i skin up.

thanks about the helmet stuff and telling us what you do during transitions. i watched the transitions vid but your itemizing things really helps.

another question to add: do i need climbing pants? the group i'm going with suggested the patagonia dual point pant. however they only make a men's and i'm not sure why i would be needing both a hard shell plus this pant. does anyone know why they'd suggest it? i'll ask them when they are back from holiday next week i guess.

good question about the peeing @skiwest, i've done this with my snowboard on. it's a matter of balancing and trying to not let your butt go in the snow. on skis i imagine you have to twist a bit? hm how does that work?? but yes i have the same question on terrain in which there are no features to hide behind (like above treeline), how do you do this in front of other men? i think i've gravitated toward women only trips in my mind b/c of this.

and i know, i'm so glad i asked this question here! i knew there were experienced AT skiers here who had a wealth of knowledge and since i couldn't find a resource or a thread here with a lot of detail, i figured a thread to collect all.the.things would be great for that.

 

[echo_VT]

the hardshell pant, they recommend the triolet pant from patagonia so that will be on the order of $300 or so, not quite as much as the bibbed powslayer pant - thank goodness. okay i plan to visit Patagonia, Arcteryx and Helly Hansen to check out some gear, maybe eddie bauer as well b/c i know it will be cheaper and make this all a lot easier to swallow.

 

[MrsPlow]

I'm thinking about buying a she-wee or similar for the whole peeing situation - anyone tried those?

 

[Ringrat]

thanks @Ringrat about the remarks about speed - going uphill and also transitioning. i was told that i really can't mess around esp. if we're aiming to do a certain number of climbing for the day. so that makes sense not really sitting much at all.

Certainly if you have specific targets in mind for a day, then a certain level of speed will be required. At some point it can make sense to set targets that push speed. But I'd say that starting out, you should be picking goals for the day (and therefore people to ski with) that allow you to go at a pace that is comfortable for you, where you're not always feeling rushed, and that allow you to take the time to ask questions, assess the terrain and snow, and make good decisions. That decision making process can be slower with less experienced people in the group, and if I was skiing with a group that wasn't willing to let me take the time I wanted to make decisions, I wouldn't be skiing with them again. On the other hand, being efficient at transitions is very useful. That will come with practice, too. And again, if you're with a group that is so focused on the objectives that they can't take the time to give you some tips and let you figure a few things out...ugh.

another question to add: do i need climbing pants? the group i'm going with suggested the patagonia dual point pant. however they only make a men's and i'm not sure why i would be needing both a hard shell plus this pant. does anyone know why they'd suggest it? i'll ask them when they are back from holiday next week i guess.

I have no idea why you'd need 2 pairs of pants. Unless you can get a hardshell pant over top of your others without taking off boots, that sounds like an awful idea.

good question about the peeing skiwest, i've done this with my snowboard on. it's a matter of balancing and trying to not let your butt go in the snow. on skis i imagine you have to twist a bit? hm how does that work?? but yes i have the same question on terrain in which there are no features to hide behind (like above treeline), how do you do this in front of other men? i think i've gravitated toward women only trips in my mind b/c of this.

I own a funnel, but rarely use it. I find in the winter that by the time I have my pants, 1-2 pairs of long underwear, and actual underwear out of the way, it's hard to get a good seal and I've taken more time than it would have taken to pee normally. Plus, I have to get it out and put it away. Since I rarely take off my pack to pee, it would definitely take longer. They can be useful, though, and I know lots of folks that like them. Try it in the shower. Then try it in the shower with all your layers on. Only then would I use it in the field. Leaks suck (yes, I've leaked in the field, it's unpleasant). I squat like I always do while hiking, and pee between my skis. No twisting required. I make a point of doing this while I have skins on (before/after transitions or on a climb) to reduce the chance of sliding anywhere while undressed. If I'm in open terrain, I go to the back of the group and tell people I'm stopping to pee. I've never had anyone not turn around. Also, if you face the group, there's nothing to see as your bum is point away from them.