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Applying lessons learnt from skiing to the bike

KathrynC

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I had my first big spring bike ride this weekend - beautiful weather but the roads left something to be desired, potholed and covered in gravel after a harsh winter.

I found myself using lessons taken away from skiing on the descents - particularly staying forward through turns but also using the same techniques I use in skiing to stay calm and relaxed at speed instead of tightening up. The only problem was resisting the urge to try to hockey stop when I did have to come to a halt! Something tells me that wouldn't have gone well.

Has anyone else noticed these parallels? How about taking lessons from skiing to other sports?
 

racetiger

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Skiing has improved my balance just in general. I've noticed a huge connection with the martial arts where lessons from both benefit both
 

KathrynC

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Generally my balance is pretty good - I am an ex-gymnast and I came late to skiing. I think I apply balance learnt from gymnastics and honed with rock climbing to skiing and cycling rather than vice versa. But I can see how that would work the other way round especially if you learnt to ski young.
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
There are many lessons I’ve learned biking that have transferred to my skiing and vice versa.

Taking a look at these two photos (both taken from google image search)...
0766941E-4EEC-45DE-B311-C4A80234D3C2.jpeg

Their body position, though not identical, have undeniable similarities. Both athletes are:
- Using both inclination and angulation to balance
- Using long leg/short leg to create angulation
- Leading their turn with their inside knee/leg
- Heavily weighting their outside leg for maximum traction
- Looking ahead in their direction of travel (not down at their wheel/skis)
 

KathrynC

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Nice comparison! I'm more of a roadie but it still translates. I hadn't thought about the comparison of weighting the outside leg, but now I see the photo it is obvious.

I intended to mention looking ahead and not down at my wheel in my original post - that was something else I was aware of over the weekend.

At Glenmore Lodge (which is the Scottish National Outdoor Training Centre, providing both instructor training and personal training in a variety of sports), many of the ski instructors teach mountain biking through the summer - I guess that is no coincidence!
 

echo_VT

Angel Diva
i'm a cyclist year round so there were things i did in cycling that i applied to my skiing...!

i've applied stuff i learned from skiing to skating. if i go blading i will probably use what i learned while skiing for that.

i've also used staying balanced over hips and driving hips forward while running, similar to what i was working on while learning to ski in powder.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Generally my balance is pretty good - I am an ex-gymnast and I came late to skiing. I think I apply balance learnt from gymnastics and honed with rock climbing to skiing and cycling rather than vice versa. But I can see how that would work the other way round especially if you learnt to ski young.
For me, I applied what I learned taking lessons as an advanced skier to the first experience on a mountain bike last fall. It was a special 1-day clinic for women at my home ski hill. Massanutten started lift-served mountain biking a few years ago but have had bike trails for a while. I could easily relate to what the instructors said about fore-aft balance, being relaxed, and looking ahead to what ski instructors do with advanced skiers. Was probably easier to see the similarities because I have done ski lessons relatively recently as an adult. I don't remember what instructors said when I learned as a teen.
 

racetiger

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Alot of the world cup level ski racers are also bicyclists. We're on to something here. Its finally dry enough here to get the bike out of storage and go for a ride
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Their body position, though not identical, have undeniable similarities. Both athletes are:
- Using both inclination and angulation to balance
- Using long leg/short leg to create angulation
- Leading their turn with their inside knee/leg
- Heavily weighting their outside leg for maximum traction
- Looking ahead in their direction of travel (not down at their wheel/skis)

One of my ski coaches uses mountain biking as a metaphor for skiing. She's stated pretty much everything listed above, plus arms in front, etc.
 

geargrrl

Angel Diva
I would say the crossover application is between mountain biking and skiing, road biking not so much. Road riders are very static in the quest for aerodynamics, whereas in mountain biking the goal is to use the whole body dynamically.
 

KathrynC

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I would say the crossover application is between mountain biking and skiing, road biking not so much. Road riders are very static in the quest for aerodynamics, whereas in mountain biking the goal is to use the whole body dynamically.

I see what you mean, but I find that on technical road descents there are definitely parallels. I do weight the outside leg and lead with the inside knee to maintain traction when cornering at speed, which naturally leads to long leg/short leg, inclination of the bike, and some angulation. I also concentrate very much on weighting the handle bars (i.e., keeping weight forwards) and looking ahead rather than at my wheel.

If you look at this article about cornering on road bikes https://road.cc/content/feature/217155-11-tips-better-cornering, you can see that most of the photos show similar position to the image that @elemmac posted above (particularly the photo for point 7) - the main difference is that angulation between the torso and lower body is reduced compared to the mountain bike because it is harder to achieve when you are forward in the drops.

I agree that the parallels are between skiing and mountain biking are much starker than between skiing and road cycling though.

Having said that, I am very much a hobby-ist and worry more about enjoying the view than being aerodynamic :smile:
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I see what you mean, but I find that on technical road descents there are definitely parallels. I do weight the outside leg and lead with the inside knee to maintain traction when cornering at speed, which naturally leads to long leg/short leg, inclination of the bike, and some angulation. I also concentrate very much on weighting the handle bars (i.e., keeping weight forwards) and looking ahead rather than at my wheel.

If you look at this article about cornering on road bikes https://road.cc/content/feature/217155-11-tips-better-cornering, you can see that most of the photos show similar position to the image that @elemmac posted above (particularly the photo for point 7) - the main difference is that angulation between the torso and lower body is reduced compared to the mountain bike because it is harder to achieve when you are forward in the drops.

I agree that the parallels are between skiing and mountain biking are much starker than between skiing and road cycling though.

Having said that, I am very much a hobby-ist and worry more about enjoying the view than being aerodynamic :smile:

This is nit-picking, because the same principles apply in all the cases above; I just mention it because I think the differences between road biking and MTB are interesting:

It's hard to see in the MTB photo above, but he's not really shortening his inside leg, nor is he dropping his outside foot the way the roadie is in KathrynC's post: his inside foot is on the back pedal, but his pedals are level. (He's angling his knee in the direction of the turn, though). You don't want to drop your outside foot in MTB because your pedal could strike a rock or root.

BUT, he is using angulation to get as much weight over the tires as possible when cornering, that's for sure, and those photos are really interesting! Thanks for sharing those, @elemmac !

I'm on shakier ground here, but I think in skiing you want your torso basically pointed down the fall line (in most cases?). The mountain biker's form is textbook: he's looking at the turn's exit and facing that way with his torso and hips. It seems as though the MTBer is following the turn with his upper body more than is common in skiing? I'm thinking that the comparison is very similar in terms of angulation but less so with separation.
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
It's hard to see in the MTB photo above, but he's not really shortening his inside leg, nor is he dropping his outside foot the way the roadie is in KathrynC's post: his inside foot is on the back pedal, but his pedals are level. (He's angling his knee in the direction of the turn, though). You don't want to drop your outside foot in MTB because your pedal could strike a rock or root.

His outside foot is definitely more down in the photo, it may be a bit ‘down and back’ opposed to just down but the pedals are not level.

You want to drop your outside foot for two reasons, one being to help lower your center your gravity which will reduce the possibility of slipping out. The second reason is to prevent pedal strikes in your inside foot. With the angulation you’re creating when turning, you are bringing your inside foot closer to the ground, if you don’t lift it (shorten that leg), you risk hitting roots or rocks with your inside pedal. You’re naturally raising your outside foot away from pedal strikes using angulation or inclination.

I'm thinking that the comparison is very similar in terms of angulation but less so with separation.

I would compare upper/lower body separation in skiing to body/bike separation when mountain biking. Very similar concepts.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
You want to drop your outside foot for two reasons, one being to help lower your center your gravity which will reduce the possibility of slipping out. The second reason is to prevent pedal strikes in your inside foot. With the angulation you’re creating when turning, you are bringing your inside foot closer to the ground, if you don’t lift it (shorten that leg), you risk hitting roots or rocks with your inside pedal. You’re naturally raising your outside foot away from pedal strikes using angulation or inclination.

Hmmm, that's definitely something to think about. I never drop my outside foot, too afraid of a pedal strike.
 

heather matthews

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There is fair a bit of crossover between MTB(downhill especially) and skiing.I've been riding a lot of park with lots of jumps drops shorter and longer bermed corners and the constant dynamic flow does require a similar focus to skiing.The fitness and strength gained from one really seem to help with the other too.
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
Hmmm, that's definitely something to think about. I never drop my outside foot, too afraid of a pedal strike.

I should probably clarify that I’m talking about cornering at high enough speeds and smooth enough terrain to require some inclination, the the photo shows. If you’re not on an angle...pedal strikes are definitely more likely in the sense you’re talking about.

Or if you’re on really rooty/rocky terrain, the same long leg/short leg won’t necessarily apply. And to continue with the skiing similarity, when you’re on that type of terrain, bike/body separation and equal weighting (or less bias) becomes more prevalent, just as it does with skiing trees and bumps.

I’ll go one step further and throw in the importance and similarities of line choice in both mtb and skiing.
 

geargrrl

Angel Diva
Sometimes it is semantics.
That photo of the mountainbiker: if you rotate that rider so she is at 90 to horizonatal, you will see the pedals are level, not up/down. The more extreme the angulation, the more weighted the outside pedal is to aid with counter balance.
Up/down vs level is one of the ongoing moutnain bike debates. As I teach it, beginnners starte with level because we want them to focus on turning the hips shoudler and head, and body/bike seperation, not their feet. As we move into higher level cornering with more lean and more extremed angulating (body bike seperation) then the pedals get weighted more to the outside.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I’ll go one step further and throw in the importance and similarities of line choice in both mtb and skiing.

I'd add whitewater paddling with respect to line choice, as well, Come to think of it, edging a whitewater boat involves similar angulation to biking and skiing. It seems that with any sport, the higher levels of progress involve quite subtle matters of body position/form.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Sometimes it is semantics.
That photo of the mountainbiker: if you rotate that rider so she is at 90 to horizonatal, you will see the pedals are level, not up/down. The more extreme the angulation, the more weighted the outside pedal is to aid with counter balance.
Up/down vs level is one of the ongoing moutnain bike debates. As I teach it, beginnners starte with level because we want them to focus on turning the hips shoudler and head, and body/bike seperation, not their feet. As we move into higher level cornering with more lean and more extremed angulating (body bike seperation) then the pedals get weighted more to the outside.

That jibes with my experience regarding instruction;I've been taught both techniques, and if you look at skills-instruction videos, you definitely find plenty in each school of thought, and plenty more of the "horses for courses" variety. I bike in rocky/rooty areas and find that it was just easier to develop the habit of level pedals and then, as you say, concentrate more on body position. On berms, it never occurs to me to drop a foot because the berm itself provides so much support and traction, but I'm also not racing so don't care about how fast I can corner Of course, now I want to go out and play around with different foot positions!
 

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