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Another heel lift question.. is this obscenely big??

Skisailor

Angel Diva
OK, I get what you're saying. So in what situation would a lift be helpful? Isn't there a point at which they might help certain people be balanced just right, to where they don't feel too far forward or too far back?

On another note, I just put my boots on, and on flat ground it's hard to stand up without using my quads. Is that normal? I only find I can do it easily if I stick my hip way forward.

No. That’s not normal. You should be able to stand up comfortably in your boots. Sounds like you have a lot of forward lean in your cuff. That’s a recipe for quad burn and backseat skiing unless you adopt a stance that is a bit more racer-like. The angle of your back should match the angle of your shin. So if your shin angle is more acute and your knee is pushed forward, you need to hinge more at your hips and bring your shoulders forward to match.

A more upright boot is typically the way to go.

There are very few situations where a heel lift is truly helpful. One is for people who have ankle problems so that they have VERY limited dorsilflexion. Keep in mind that we are not in tennis shoes and we only need 15-18 degrees or so of ankle range of motion in a ski boot. So a person would have to have very limited dorsiflexion indeed to need a heel lift.

Many boot fitters slap in a heel lift to take up space or to reposition the ankle or calf relative to the boot shape for comfort purposes. This is an easy bandaid “fix” which may provide some comfort but introduces all kinds of fore-aft stance problems. It is WAY overused by bootfitters trying to sell and move boots out the door.

The REAL fix is a different boot and/or a smaller boot. Or in some cases, raising the whole foot up within the liner rather than raising the heel relative to the forefoot.

We are not all Ginger Rogers afterall, and can’t do everything Fred Astaire did backwards and in HIGH HEELS. :smile::smile:
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
So I finally got out to ski without the heel lifts, I continued that way all weekend so it was an overall positive exoerience after the first couple of runs where it was a little wonky. I had a fantastic day Saturday, cobditions were great and I was so excited to be back at Sunday River that I wanted to go everywhere! So I was in bumps and trees and zooming around on groomers. NO QUAD PAIN! Today we had quite a but of new snow so that's a different story for quad pain and my utter lack of being able to ski efficiently in tons of tracked out powder..

So as a recap on removing the heel lifts:

1) No quad pain in skiing until big powder day today. Definitely chalk that up to technique in powder though, or lack thereof..
2) I felt more in control without the feeling like my skis were shooting out in front of me. I was skiing with a lot more speed than I have been recently and felt great.
3) I could actually play with fore/aft balance which doesn't usually feel possible because my lower leg is just stuck in one position.
4) No more burning pain under the balls of my feet.

Cons:
1) Definitely more room in my boots now. It's not very noticible when I'm standing around, but it is while skiing. Since my feet and ankles are so loosey goosey they can make a lot of movement from a little bit of space.
- I feel like I am now flexing my ankles, and they were sore in front which I've never felt before. Not sure if that's a good sign since I'm flexing in a different way than usual? Or if it's bad that I might be straining something?
-Is it good to have some movement to play with? I don't love the feeling, but I'm not sure if it's enough to be a problem per se and I'll just get used to it? I really really liked that I had instep contact when the lift was in, and I've lost that somewhat so that stinks.
- My toes raise up sometimes now and never did before. And in some cases I was experimenting with raising them purposefully because I was playing around with whether that did anything beneficial for my fore/aft balance. I though it might have a little. However, I noticed that my toes were cold on top today, I guess from pressing up more than normal verses down on the Hotronics.. my big toenails looked a little blue after I took off my boots, but quickly went pink again in the hot tub.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
So I finally got out to ski without the heel lifts, I continued that way all weekend so it was an overall positive exoerience after the first couple of runs where it was a little wonky. I had a fantastic day Saturday, cobditions were great and I was so excited to be back at Sunday River that I wanted to go everywhere! So I was in bumps and trees and zooming around on groomers. NO QUAD PAIN! Today we had quite a but of new snow so that's a different story for quad pain and my utter lack of being able to ski efficiently in tons of tracked out powder..

So as a recap on removing the heel lifts:

1) No quad pain in skiing until big powder day today. Definitely chalk that up to technique in powder though, or lack thereof..
2) I felt more in control without the feeling like my skis were shooting out in front of me. I was skiing with a lot more speed than I have been recently and felt great.
3) I could actually play with fore/aft balance which doesn't usually feel possible because my lower leg is just stuck in one position.
4) No more burning pain under the balls of my feet.

Cons:
1) Definitely more room in my boots now. It's not very noticible when I'm standing around, but it is while skiing. Since my feet and ankles are so loosey goosey they can make a lot of movement from a little bit of space.
- I feel like I am now flexing my ankles, and they were sore in front which I've never felt before. Not sure if that's a good sign since I'm flexing in a different way than usual? Or if it's bad that I might be straining something?
-Is it good to have some movement to play with? I don't love the feeling, but I'm not sure if it's enough to be a problem per se and I'll just get used to it? I really really liked that I had instep contact when the lift was in, and I've lost that somewhat so that stinks.
- My toes raise up sometimes now and never did before. And in some cases I was experimenting with raising them purposefully because I was playing around with whether that did anything beneficial for my fore/aft balance. I though it might have a little. However, I noticed that my toes were cold on top today, I guess from pressing up more than normal verses down on the Hotronics.. my big toenails looked a little blue after I took off my boots, but quickly went pink again in the hot tub.

This is such good news!!! I think you should address the issue of having more room in the boot. The idea is to raise up your entire foot - not just the heel. Shops sell thin insole like cutouts that you can cut to shape and place under your foot bed. Or you can do what I do and just use duct tape!!! I remove the custom foot bed and put strips of duct tape on the bottom. It’s a reversible fix and you can fool with the thickness - start with 5 layers or so and see how that feels. Add more if necessary.

This may also address your sore ankle problem by repositioning the ankle and where it bends relative to the boot and where IT bends, and will give you more leverage over the boot for ankle flexing. I’m a big believer in ankle range of motion!

What a good start!!! So excited for you.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Oh - and as far as the duct tape strips go - I like the strips to extend from the heel up to the base of the toes but not under the toes. That way I still have plenty of room in the toe box for toe wiggling.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Thanks @Skisailor, the duct tape route sounds like a good starting point, I'd love to avoid starting the back and forth to a bootfitter routine for this if possible! Just to clarify, do you add tape to the underside of the actual custom insole and therefore inside the liner or on top of the footboard which is where the heel lift was before and outside of the liner?

My only concern in lifting my whole foot is I'm not sure I'll be able to do that without a bootfitter overall because of my wide forefoot. Since the boot is obviously rounded the higher up you go, I'm not sure I'll keep enough space up there. It's a spot that I usually need stretched out in general. However, if it feels better elsewhere as far as contact on my instep etc. then I guess that wouldn't be a big issue to fix with a fitter.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Are your liners reheatable/remoldable?

I don't believe they are moldable in general unfortunately. I'll have to double check, I at least don't remember molding them the first time around when doing the fitting. I was wondering if an aftermarket liner of some sort would be an option if necessary to take up some of the space. I assume I probably packed out the liner in awkward spots in the boot at this point with there my foot was sitting so perhaps this is adding to the room I feel around my super skinny ankle and super low instep (I've been told my instep is off the charts low)? That is one thing I'm super sad about.. I really really liked the firm contact at my instep with my heel lift, I had never been able to achieve that in any previous boot. So lifting the whole foot is probably the only way to achieve that I assume.
 

MaineSkiLady

Angel Diva
Shops sell thin insole like cutouts that you can cut to shape and place under your foot bed.

https://www.tognar.com/bontex-insole-shims-pair/
SPK-S01-bontex-insoles-ski-boot-fitting-shim__96712.1315280978.jpg


These have always worked great for me. They come in 2 thicknesses. Buy both and experiment. Cheap. I put mine between my boot shell and my liner.
 

LKillick

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Wow, just read through this post, such fantastic info. Thanks for the fantastic conversation.

I'm in boots that were new last season. I have heel lifts and long femurs. Now that my boots are packed out (and maybe that my calves are more muscular this year?), I'm having heel lift while flexing. My instructor at Steamboat suggested I might need bigger heel lifts. Now I know that isn't a good call. Think my boots might also be too soft for me at 85 flex. I feel like I can't trust the boot when I flex it, if that makes sense. Very easy for me to flex. I end up with my downhill leg more straight than it should be. :frown: I also can not stand up straight in my boots.. Time to go see the bootfitter again..
 

mustski

Angel Diva
I don't believe they are moldable in general unfortunately. I'll have to double check, I at least don't remember molding them the first time around when doing the fitting. I was wondering if an aftermarket liner of some sort would be an option if necessary to take up some of the space. I assume I probably packed out the liner in awkward spots in the boot at this point with there my foot was sitting so perhaps this is adding to the room I feel around my super skinny ankle and super low instep (I've been told my instep is off the charts low)? That is one thing I'm super sad about.. I really really liked the firm contact at my instep with my heel lift, I had never been able to achieve that in any previous boot. So lifting the whole foot is probably the only way to achieve that I assume.
I have never had boots that fit snugly enough to avoid movement until this pair. I bought the boot doc liners. They are custom foamed to fit your foot in your shell so they do fill in all those spaces where your foot is "skinny." They are amazing! I have such a snug fit that, for the first time in my life, I can probably ski with my ski boots open. (I'm too chicken to actually try this!). They are 1000X better than the intuitions - I had a top of the line liner - and as I understand it, much less stiff than a zip fit so they don't change the stiffness of the boot. @contesstant uses them also. The two warnings I would offer are:
1. they do not transfer boot to boot so don't do it until you are sure your boot is the right one.
2. It's a one shot deal that the fitter must get right the first time so make sure you go to someone who has lots of experience with them.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
P
Thanks @Skisailor, the duct tape route sounds like a good starting point, I'd love to avoid starting the back and forth to a bootfitter routine for this if possible! Just to clarify, do you add tape to the underside of the actual custom insole and therefore inside the liner or on top of the footboard which is where the heel lift was before and outside of the liner?

My only concern in lifting my whole foot is I'm not sure I'll be able to do that without a bootfitter overall because of my wide forefoot. Since the boot is obviously rounded the higher up you go, I'm not sure I'll keep enough space up there. It's a spot that I usually need stretched out in general. However, if it feels better elsewhere as far as contact on my instep etc. then I guess that wouldn't be a big issue to fix with a fitter.


Regarding where to add the tape - it depends. If you’re foot is moving around inside the liner
Put it on the bottom of your footbed but inside the liner.

If the fit inside the liner is good but you feel like your movements are not being translated well to the boot, or you have to keep cranking down more on your buckles, put the tape on the bottom of the liner - on the sole on the outside.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Just wanted to provide a quick update. I’ve now skied my boots without heel lifts in Aspen at Diva West for 3 additional days. So far I haven’t really felt like there is as much room in my boots as I did on MLK weekend. I’m not sure if this is because I’m just getting more used to the additional space and being able to flex my ankle etc., or if my feet are swollen at altitiude. Either way, things are feeling really good here so far from groomers to fresh snow to bumps! Usually my legs are very sore on trips west, but so far they get tired but aren’t particularly sore at all. It’s weird! I’m also feeling much more balanced in bumps than usual, I can link way more turns than normal in them which is huge for me. I assume this is due to my balance feeling better? Hopefully I’ll be able to keep building on these skills when back home too.. as much more progress is needed but it’s a start! So , to be continued if I need to address volume in the boots at some point when back on the east coast.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
That is all such good news. You might have more tweaking to do at some point but it sounds like this is a much better foundation for you.

Yay!
 

westcoast21

Certified Ski Diva
I tried heel lifts last year, mostly to take up space, and it threw me completely off. This year I have a different foot bed to take up the space and some of those sticky pads on the outside of the liner to lock my heel down. Much better. Now I need to be careful which socks I grab, most of my ski socks are too thick.
may i ask where you got the sticky pads for the outside of your liners that help lock your heel down?
 

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