Another heel lift question.. is this obscenely big??

[MissySki]

The knees get pushed forward, and it makes it even more difficult to close the ankles.

This has all been very interesting to me. I had to have a custom saddle made when I was showing my horse to accommodate my long femurs. I had not given much thought to how it might affect my skiing.

Know what's so funny to me??? I think my beginner boots that I picked out myself at a big box store and hurt like heck on my forefoot because I didn't have any work done on them and didn't even know having work done was an option.. were the best boots I ever had in terms of an upright stance and being in balance! They just didn't fit well. I remember zooming all around and never having my quads hurt and always feeling balanced over my skis etc. I guess sometimes ignorance really is bliss!

 

[Powgirl]

Same for me, @MissySki. My first pair of beginner boots fit me well, but the flex became too soft for me. I rarely felt quad pain back then. It was only when I started skiing more advanced terrain that the burning pain became an issue.

I, too, have very long femurs and a short torso. I tried heel lifts a couple of times, and it was not helpful. What has been working is trying to stand up more, which means less knee bending and more bending at ankles and hips. It keeps me out of the back seat and virtually no quad pain. Now, hip pain is a little different story, but as I get more flexibility in that area, it's diminishing.

My control this year year is also noticeably improved.

 

[contesstant]

That's pretty funny. And it's true! Skiing can be a real challenge for an overthinker like me.

 

[MissySki]

Same for me, @MissySki. My first pair of beginner boots fit me well, but the flex became too soft for me. I rarely felt quad pain back then. It was only when I started skiing more advanced terrain that the burning pain became an issue.

I, too, have very long femurs and a short torso. I tried heel lifts a couple of times, and it was not helpful. What has been working is trying to stand up more, which means less knee bending and more bending at ankles and hips. It keeps me out of the back seat and virtually no quad pain. Now, hip pain is a little different story, but as I get more flexibility in that area, it's diminishing.

My control this year year is also noticeably improved.

That's what I'm hoping the heel lift removal will do, allow me to stand up! Fingers crossed! So funny that there appears to be a significant number of us with the same body proportion issues, wish that would make it easier for bootfitters and instructors to diagnose and address, but apparently not. Or perhaps it's still not a one size fits all fix regardless.. Here's hoping though!

In my case I was told about the long femur issue and instructed to stand up more and not stick out my butt, but I literally can't physically make that happen in my current boots and even worse in the previous ones when that lesson happened. Guess that's better than all of the instructors I've worked with who never mentioned anything about it..

 

[Powgirl]

Yes, if your boots are preventing you from standing up, that's a critical issue to be addressed sooner rather than later.

I corrected my stance working with my PT last year for my bad knee...he asked me to show him my stance and he shook head and said 'No, no'...said my knees were too bent and I needed to flex more at the hips and ankles...stand up more. It really improved my skiing so much!

 

[contesstant]

If I had a dollar for every time the L3 boyfriend has told me to "stand up!" When I try to, I feel like I'm way off balance to the back.

 

[Obrules15]

Anthropometry in squatting isn’t all that applicable to skiing. In squatting you are trying to keep the barbell over the mid-foot in skiing you are trying to stack the joints. Adding a heel lift or squatting in weightlifting shoes simply allows a lifter to maintain a more upright torso whilst keeping the barbell over mid-foot in the bottom of a full depth squat and assists with getting into what is called the power position in more complex lifts - the power position is where the knees are slightly flexed with knees and feet in front of hips and shoulders. Both of these are completely different than you want in skiing. Heel lift in a long femured short torsoed skier are disaster of epic proportion. And really bad for the lumbar spine.

You said this before, but I was sent these videos by the folks at Harb Ski Systems who are using them to develop a model for for/aft balance in skiing so I will respectfully disagree with you.

 

[Obrules15]

Heel lift in a long femured short torsoed skier are disaster of epic proportion.

I'm sorry but this is not true.

I am 5'4" with a 32" inseam, come ski with me and you'll see.

 

[Powgirl]

Yep, my SO now tells me when I'm hunched over with 'Stand up!' and when I am not using rotation with my turns...I gave him permission to do this and I'm working hard on it. I am finding you have to find a whole new balance (Tits over tips, chin up), but it's making me a better skier...an advanced skier.

Over Christmas, I unintentionally ended up on a black run that I didn't want to be on...SO skied over to where I was and coached me down with 'Don't stop, keep turning' and 'Stand up!'. It was scary, but it worked...I was grinning ear to ear once I got down that steep chute...skied it 3 more times!

 

[Gloria]

You said this before, but I was sent these videos by the folks at Harb Ski Systems who are using them to develop a model for for/aft balance in skiing so I will respectfully disagree with you.

If they are using squats and heel lifts I think they will find out what weightlifters already know. The raised heel Olympic squat is always a more quad dominant squat no matter the proportions of who is squatting and the powerlifting squat using flat shoes and less upright torso is a more posterior Chain dominant squat.

 

[Obrules15]

If they are using squats and heel lifts I think they will find out what weightlifters already know. The raised heel Olympic squat is always a more quad dominant squat no matter the proportions of who is squatting and the powerlifting squat using flat shoes and less upright torso is a more posterior Chain dominant squat.

I think you are misunderstanding the point. It's about where your center of mass is balanced and how that affects the ability to use the skis properly. Different proportions fold differently which affects ability to pressure the ski tips. I, by stretch no stretch of the imagination, claim expertise here, but the people who sent this to me and are responsible for my setup are.

I've been skiing my setup (the one you are saying would be a disaster) successfully for years and experimenting with different levels of lift. It works.

In addition to Harald Harb, Diana Rogers (who is the VP) is an aerospace engineer and Walker is a biomedical engineer. They know their stuff. Really.

 

[Obrules15]

@Gloria Think about it like this, a ski turn is about flexing and extending. Proportions will determine how your center of mass moves along the skis during those maneuvers. Someone with long femurs will have a disproportionate response to flexion relative to someone who has a longer torso.

It's about where your center of mass is balanced and how that affects the ability to use the skis properly. Different proportions fold differently which affects ability to pressure the ski tips.

I've been skiing my setup (the one you are saying would be a disaster) successfully for years and experimenting with different levels of lift. It works.

The people responsible for this are some of the best in the business, which is why I trust their judgement over yours. In addition to Harald Harb, Diana Rogers (who is the VP) is an aerospace engineer and Walker is a biomedical engineer. They know their stuff. Really.

 

[Gloria]

I understand the point and I think it’s cool they are thinking this way. As someone who has competed in both sports, coached for and is coached by some of the best in the biz in both sports - I think the use of heel lifts is respective to both sports though. The only similarity is in increasing dorsiflexion. Beyond that weightlifters use them for different outcomes than skiers and you use your center of mass very differently between the two sports. Bodybuilders raise their heels to specifically target the quads when squatting. Powerlifters rarely use them because they don’t need to squat below parallel, oly lifters use them because they help them squat below parallel with an upright torso. This is important to the way they receive the weight and has little to do with femur length and they definately aren’t pressuring their tips with a barbell overhead and they tend to have higher proportionate quad strength as compared to a powerlifter due to this position. When bodybuilders squat with a raised heel it’s ussually in the smith rack with an emphasis on leaning back into the bar. Etc etc. So sure use heel lifts skiing if they help you with SKIING. Trust me the benefit I gain lifting in them is not a direct translation to my skiing where the effects are negative. Heel lifts destroyed my lower back, the well known boot fitter I saw pulled my liners out grabbed the heel lifts out of my boots and threw them across the room. Yes I have long femurs but I also have excellent dorsiflexion, I needed no help getting forward. In fact I don’t need heel lifts to squat full depth with an upright torso either. I have trouble keeping my weight back and have a tendency to let the weight pull me forward without them. Completely different from where I want my weight skiing. So after all that more power to these people it would be neat to see this done in a skiing specific way.

 

[Obrules15]

I understand the point and I think it’s cool they are thinking this way. As someone who has competed in both sports, coached for and is coached by some of the best in the biz in both sports - I think the use of heel lifts is respective to both sports though. The only similarity is in increasing dorsiflexion. Beyond that weightlifters use them for different outcomes than skiers and you use your center of mass very differently between the two sports. Bodybuilders raise their heels to specifically target the quads when squatting. Powerlifters rarely use them because they don’t need to squat below parallel, oly lifters use them because they help them squat below parallel with an upright torso. This is important to the way they receive the weight and has little to do with femur length and they definately aren’t pressuring their tips with a barbell overhead and they tend to have higher proportionate quad strength as compared to a powerlifter due to this position. When bodybuilders squat with a raised heel it’s ussually in the smith rack with an emphasis on leaning back into the bar. Etc etc. So sure use heel lifts skiing if they help you with SKIING. Trust me the benefit I gain lifting in them is not a direct translation to my skiing where the effects are negative. Heel lifts destroyed my lower back, the well known boot fitter I saw pulled my liners out grabbed the heel lifts out of my boots and threw them across the room. Yes I have long femurs but I also have excellent dorsiflexion, I needed no help getting forward. In fact I don’t need heel lifts to squat full depth with an upright torso either. I have trouble keeping my weight back and have a tendency to let the weight pull me forward without them. Completely different from where I want my weight skiing. So after all that more power to these people it would be neat to see this done in a skiing specific way.

It isn't just heel lifts, it's also binding mount position, boot forward lean, binding delta, etc. Basically an attempt to figure out a better way to determine who needs what besides which bathroom one uses.

We all know that all women don't need heel lifts and even all long femured people. It's at least an attempt to do better by understanding the mechanics which include torso length, femur length, Tib/fib length. Etc.

Having gone through hell with way too many people telling me the wrong things and years and years of trial and error with my setup, I would love to see a model that at least tries to address it from a biomechanical standpoint.

 

[CindiSue]

I'm struggling with quads being completely shot quickly, ever since I got my new boot fitted boots a few years ago (it's so bad I've barely skied since then.) I admit I'm not strong but I've been squatting and deadlifting for a year and a half and can do quite a lot of weight. So can someone explain the mechanics of this issue in more detail? I had lifts in my previous boots and thought that really helped me stay forward, but you're saying lifts cause you to be too far back, causing the quad pain...

note: I am horrible to fit for boots because of long, low volume foot with high instep. Both times I've been bootfitted I ended up with jr racing boots.

 

[Obrules15]

I'm struggling with quads being completely shot quickly, ever since I got my new boot fitted boots a few years ago (it's so bad I've barely skied since then.) I admit I'm not strong but I've been squatting and deadlifting for a year and a half and can do quite a lot of weight. So can someone explain the mechanics of this issue in more detail? I had lifts in my previous boots and thought that really helped me stay forward, but you're saying lifts cause you to be too far back, causing the quad pain...

note: I am horrible to fit for boots because of long, low volume foot with high instep. Both times I've been bootfitted I ended up with jr racing boots.

Ok, this is silly, but true.

Close your eyes, imagine a fist heading for your face.....What happened.

Hopefully you reared back to protect yourself. That's how heel lifts put people in the back seat. They really actually put you forward but if your lizard brain says "he** no, that's too forward, my knees won't hold me, I'm unstable and gonna die" you react by sitting back on your heels, which is very stressful on the quads. It's still possible to get forward but for most of us there is a point where either physically or mentally we just won't/can't.

 

[CindiSue]

Hopefully you reared back to protect yourself. That's how heel lifts put people in the back seat. They really actually put you forward but if your lizard brain says "he** no, that's too forward, my knees won't hold me, I'm unstable and gonna die" you react by sitting back on your heels, which is very stressful on the quads. It's still possible to get forward but for most of us there is a point where either physically or mentally we just won't/can't.

OK, I get what you're saying. So in what situation would a lift be helpful? Isn't there a point at which they might help certain people be balanced just right, to where they don't feel too far forward or too far back?

On another note, I just put my boots on, and on flat ground it's hard to stand up without using my quads. Is that normal? I only find I can do it easily if I stick my hip way forward.

 

[Obrules15]

OK, I get what you're saying. So in what situation would a lift be helpful? Isn't there a point at which they might help certain people be balanced just right, to where they don't feel too far forward or too far back?

On another note, I just put my boots on, and on flat ground it's hard to stand up without using my quads. Is that normal? I only find I can do it easily if I stick my hip way forward.

It depends on each individuals biomechanics which include relative proportions (femur length, torso, tib/fib), flexibility etc. But also realize that different boots have different ramp angles and degrees of forward lean, and different skis have different binding deltas. It may not (just) be the lifts.

For me learning that it was ok to keep my hip vertically balanced above my knee, regardless of the position of my feet was a HUGE breakthrough that resulted in significantly less quad pain because once you are up it doesn't take as much energy to stay up whereas keeping the hips back has a way higher energy cost.

As far as heel lifts-after much trial and error (skiing with them in, and out, and in again, and bigger, and smaller etc), I actually have a large heel lift, significant binding delta, large amounts of forward lean on my boots, and a very forward mounting point. But I am a mutant (at least I now know why all of my boats mysteriously won races when I rowed crew) whose proportions engender thigh smacking laughter at the bootfitter's.

The best thing really is to try skiing with them and try skiing without them. I do have more quad burn than I like but I decided to accept that in return for increased stability and control in turns. We each have different goals in our skiing and what we are willing to tolerate is a function of that. For me, the level of control that I get from the lift is worth it. It may not be for others. You have to decide what works for you.

 

[Christy]

I'm struggling with quads being completely shot quickly, ever since I got my new boot fitted boots a few years ago (it's so bad I've barely skied since then.) I admit I'm not strong but I've been squatting and deadlifting for a year and a half and can do quite a lot of weight. So can someone explain the mechanics of this issue in more detail? I had lifts in my previous boots and thought that really helped me stay forward, but you're saying lifts cause you to be too far back, causing the quad pain...

note: I am horrible to fit for boots because of long, low volume foot with high instep. Both times I've been bootfitted I ended up with jr racing boots.

Junior race boots have lots of forward lean, which can cause immediate quad burn that has nothing to do with fitness.

I have a low volume high instep foot and am in Dalbello Chakras, adjusted to be as upright as possible ( so, no spoiler).

You've barely skied since you got the boots/fitting because it's so bad??? And the fitter says..???

 

[JayDeeVee]

https://thebootguys.com/gmolfootbalance.htm

I just came across this site, and was struck by the first image of excessive dorsiflexion. This is what my ankle does..? I'm sure this is an oversimplification of everythig else that goes into it, but wouldn't heel lifts be the exact opposite of what you want then?

I'm trying to wrap my head around if my knees are too forward and my ankle has no room to actually move further what that all means. Shouldn't that make it more difficult to be in the backseat? Or maybe not due to whatever compensation is happening? Wish I was better at visualizing body mechanics..

Excessive dorsiflexion can also be caused by the size and shape of your calf. If you have a nice rounded/muscular calf, you betcha your knees are going to be at extreme angles. I have skied like this all my life and because of my leg length and foot size, I have had a terrible time getting boots to fit me properly. It also impacts my skiing because my ankles are already flexed to the max.

Side note, this was actually why I was looking at Apex boots. You can adjust the forward lean between 10 and 16 degrees. That's how I ended up here in the first place.

There is debate whether a heel lift in this situation will actually provide relief. A shorter cuff height and ability f the shell to be more tulip shaped helps. But only if the largest part of your calf matches to the widest part of the boot.

 

[MissySki]

I'm finally going to ski this weekend again, looking forward to seeing how things feel without the lifts. If horrible I'll ask the shop for some smaller ones to try as well. Hoping for things to just feel great sans lift, though that is probably wishful thinking! I just don't want to spend a ton of time playing with boots versus actually skiing. This will be Saturday, Sunday we are expecting a big storm so def not wasting that with boot tweaks!