Another heel lift question.. is this obscenely big??

[Obrules15]

So I had 1 full season on them and then 2 seasons where I didn't ski much at all (I think 12-15 days and then only 3 days total last season), so this would be season 4. They definitely have not packed out much in the forefoot area though, or anywhere else that is obvious to me. From others I know who have this boot, I've heard the liners are really good and don't really do much packing out, seems to match my experience so far. In fact I'd like it to pack out a tiny bit more in the forefoot on my right foot because I always have to do some 6th toe area stretching with new boots and I've wondered if I should do a tiny bit more or not occassionally when it feels too snug there. Throughout the ski day my foot usually settles in and then I fear if I stretch more in that spot it may be too much so I haven't. All this to say, I don't believe that there is additional space that my foot is trying to fill now.

Though I wonder if something has changed that I can't identify to be just now experiencing more issues than the previous few years.. Last year didn't really count since I barely got out and all, but I'd have thought that year one should have brought this stuff to light if it was just the setup. That's why I also wonder if it's just some sort of regression from less skiing in recent time and a lesson might help that. Could also be that I'm not as strong as I was previously to overcome whatever issue has always been there..

You sound as though you've had a similiar experience with heel lifts!

One of the things to realize with heel lifts is they don't just do one thing to you. They change how your mass is balanced on the skis and modify a bunch of stuff.

What I realized when playing around was how much my psychological state affected whether I was for or aft regardless of lifts. At one point I ended up in slush bumps and could not get forward to save my life, I had just added ramp delta and though that was the problem. Now fast forward two years (and a lot of experimentation) and I realize the problem wasn't too much forward lean, it was fear. I am back in that exact same setup and am skiing beautifully.

Last month I posted about spending time carpet skiing and really laying forward on my skis and letting my boots support me (like a jumper) and it made me realize how my stance and aft problems had been affected by not trusting my equipment to support me.

There are definitely those who need lifts and those for whom lifts are a disaster, but don't underestimate how much you (and your crazy brain) are responsible for your stance.

P.S. The other thing that changed was stronger knees, I can now hold myself forward so am not stuck back so much.

 

[altagirl]

FWIW, I tried heel lifts at one point. I happened to be taking a lesson and the instructor watched me ski and asked if I had heel lifts in. We stopped and took them out at the bottom of the run, and even with my boots now being loose in the ankle, my skiing and stance improved dramatically. I definitely start getting in the backseat with heel lifts. Not a good idea for me.

 

[mustski]

There was a period of time where boot fitters put every female in heel lifts. Jeannie Thoren started this "movement" because heel lifts helped her so much, she believed all women would benefit from heel lifts. Fortunately, boot fitters seem to be getting over that trend. In fairness, women's boots in the 1970/80s left a lot to be desired. I must confess to missing the ease of putting on those rear entry boots though!

 

[MissySki]

https://thebootguys.com/gmolfootbalance.htm

I just came across this site, and was struck by the first image of excessive dorsiflexion. This is what my ankle does..? I'm sure this is an oversimplification of everythig else that goes into it, but wouldn't heel lifts be the exact opposite of what you want then?

I'm trying to wrap my head around if my knees are too forward and my ankle has no room to actually move further what that all means. Shouldn't that make it more difficult to be in the backseat? Or maybe not due to whatever compensation is happening? Wish I was better at visualizing body mechanics..

 

[Obrules15]

https://thebootguys.com/gmolfootbalance.htm

I just came across this site, and was struck by the first image of excessive dorsiflexion. This is what my ankle does..? I'm sure this is an oversimplification of everythig else that goes into it, but wouldn't heel lifts be the exact opposite of what you want then?

I'm trying to wrap my head around if my knees are too forward and my ankle has no room to actually move further what that all means. Shouldn't that make it more difficult to be in the backseat? Or maybe not due to whatever compensation is happening? Wish I was better at visualizing body mechanics..

If you have long femurs that is actually a different problem. There is a video about squat mechanics that shows the effect of long femurs on squatting. I posted it here a few years ago. But dorsiflexion does not sound like the reason you got heel lifts.


https://bretcontreras.com/how-femur-length-effects-squat-mechanics/

Here are the videos and articles. The end of the second video shows the mechanics of what happens with heel lifts and long femurs.

 

[MissySki]

If you have long femurs that is actually a different problem. There is a video about squat mechanics that shows the effect of long femurs on squatting. I posted it here a few years ago. But dorsiflexion does not sound like the reason you got heel lifts.

Oh I didn't mean to say that the dorsiflexion was the reason for the heel lifts, just that I also have excessive dorsiflexion so I wonder why I was given heel lifts in the first place if the opposite is generally used when this is the case. Perhaps I am just a hot mess of terrible geometry all over the place from different variables!

 

[Obrules15]

Oh I didn't mean to say that the dorsiflexion was the reason for the heel lifts, just that I also have excessive dorsiflexion so I wonder why I was given heel lifts in the first place if the opposite is generally used when this is the case. Perhaps I am just a hot mess of terrible geometry all over the place from different variables!

Trust me, you are less of a geometric hot mess than me. My boot fitter nearly fell on the floor laughing when she realized how "less than ideal for skiing" my proportions really are. Watch the videos, they explain why heel lifts work for long femurs and show how it is independent of dorsiflexion.


https://bretcontreras.com/how-femur-length-effects-squat-mechanics/

 

[Christy]

Those videos are interesting!

 

[contesstant]

Oh I didn't mean to say that the dorsiflexion was the reason for the heel lifts, just that I also have excessive dorsiflexion so I wonder why I was given heel lifts in the first place if the opposite is generally used when this is the case. Perhaps I am just a hot mess of terrible geometry all over the place from different variables!

I resemble this remark.

Heck, I skied a pair of demo skis from the shop today just to see if I wanted to get back on longer skis (I do.) The bindings have more ramp than I am used to, and I was SO in the backseat, fighting it the entire way down on groomers that had formed moguls and giant piles.

An observation is that higher heels makes the skis feel sluggish, or turn initiation slower. I had better luck making quick turns on my 169 Santa Anas at 100 under foot with Attack 12s than I did today on 166 Black Pearls. Being Goldilocks is annoying.

 

[MissySki]

Those videos are interesting, and now I'm doing squats to see what I look like! Here's a question, what is a normal ratio for femur versus lower leg and how offset do they need to be to make it very much in one direction or the other? I was told by Ursula that I had long femurs like @Christy mentioned, but I don't know how far into that spectrum I actually am or how exactly to measure it. I know my legs are seemingly long for my height and my torso short, but that's a pretty qualitative observation.

 

[MissySki]

@contesstant do you still have gas pedals at all? Or no lifts in either direction?

 

[Obrules15]

Those videos are interesting, and now I'm doing squats to see what I look like! Here's a question, what is a normal ratio for femur versus lower leg and how offset do they need to be to make it very much in one direction or the other? I was told by Ursula that I had long femurs like @Christy mentioned, but I don't know how far into that spectrum I actually am or how exactly to measure it. I know my legs are seemingly long for my height and my torso short, but that's a pretty qualitative observation.

No bloody idea, but those videos were sent to me by my bootfitter who's shop is in the process of trying to create a model for this. I wait with baited breath.

The balance measurements taken for you might also be a way for accounting for this (basically by measuring weight distribution instead of proportions), but I'm not really sure.

 

[mustski]

@MissySki have you tried skiing with them in and then out - preferably on the same day on 2 consecutive runs (once you are warmed up)? That should tell you what you need to know. In the end, if you have learned to adapt to your anatomy while skiing, and ski better flat, ditch the heel lifts.

 

[contesstant]

@contesstant do you still have gas pedals at all? Or no lifts in either direction?

No gas pedals. Even those didn't do the trick with the junior race boots.

 

[MissySki]

@MissySki have you tried skiing with them in and then out - preferably on the same day on 2 consecutive runs (once you are warmed up)? That should tell you what you need to know. In the end, if you have learned to adapt to your anatomy while skiing, and ski better flat, ditch the heel lifts.

Not yet. I wish I had pulled the lifts last Saturday at the mountain and done so. When I'm out next I'll be experimenting though.

 

[Gloria]

If you have long femurs that is actually a different problem. There is a video about squat mechanics that shows the effect of long femurs on squatting. I posted it here a few years ago. But dorsiflexion does not sound like the reason you got heel lifts.


https://bretcontreras.com/how-femur-length-effects-squat-mechanics/

Here are the videos and articles. The end of the second video shows the mechanics of what happens with heel lifts and long femurs.

Anthropometry in squatting isn’t all that applicable to skiing. In squatting you are trying to keep the barbell over the mid-foot in skiing you are trying to stack the joints. Adding a heel lift or squatting in weightlifting shoes simply allows a lifter to maintain a more upright torso whilst keeping the barbell over mid-foot in the bottom of a full depth squat and assists with getting into what is called the power position in more complex lifts - the power position is where the knees are slightly flexed with knees and feet in front of hips and shoulders. Both of these are completely different than you want in skiing. Heel lift in a long femured short torsoed skier are disaster of epic proportion. And really bad for the lumbar spine.

 

[MissySki]

Heel lift in a long femured short torsoed skier are disaster of epic proportion. And really bad for the lumbar spine.

This is me .. impatiently waiting to get back on snow to test without the huge heel lifts. Would love any words of wisdom for what this body type should be further targeting in skiing/boots if you have any tips!

One thing I did notice in the video was when they added the heel lifts and it pushed the knees forward.. that's exactly what happens to me, feels like I can't stand as tall as I want to and I feel like that is the starting point for all of the bad mechanics that I might be adding to compensate and sitting back. It doesn't seem like I can possibly get forward enough to stack everything up from that point where my knees are stuck out.. When I stand in line, I often find quad relief by leaning on my poles and leaning forward and bent at the waist to straighten/stretch my legs more.

 

[contesstant]

The knees get pushed forward, and it makes it even more difficult to close the ankles.

This has all been very interesting to me. I had to have a custom saddle made when I was showing my horse to accommodate my long femurs. I had not given much thought to how it might affect my skiing.

 

[Gloria]

This is me .. impatiently waiting to get back on snow to test without the huge heel lifts. Would love any words of wisdom for what this body type should be further targeting in skiing/boots if you have any tips!

One thing I did notice in the video was when they added the heel lifts and it pushed the knees forward.. that's exactly what happens to me, feels like I can't stand as tall as I want to and I feel like that is the starting point for all of the bad mechanics that I might be adding to compensate and sitting back. It doesn't seem like I can possibly get forward enough to stack everything up from that point where my knees are stuck out.. When I stand in line, I often find quad relief by leaning on my poles and leaning forward and bent at the waist to straighten/stretch my legs more.

That’s exactly it! If you look at Olympic weightlifters they all wear weightlifting shoes with a raised heel. Those with longer femurs have a closed knee position with a more horizontal femur that travels farther over the toe and more shin angle. Those with shorter femurs and longer torso have more femur angle ( their hips can drop lower ), less knee protrusion over the toes and less shin angle. What happens in skiing with a shorter torso longer femur and heel lifts is the knees get shifted forward also, this leads to a serious counter balance act on skis often leading to the skier over arching the lumbar spine in effort to get some weight distributed back over the heels by moving the shoulders back over a shorter lever system. The forward knee translation is he!! On the quads too. I have this body type and lift in 3/4” heels but ski with either a flat foot or even a dropped heel depending on the boot. I stick also with boots that have minimal forward lean.

 

[MissySki]

That’s exactly it! If you look at Olympic weightlifters they all wear weightlifting shoes with a raised heel. Those with longer femurs have a closed knee position with a more horizontal femur that travels farther over the toe and more shin angle. Those with shorter femurs and longer torso have more femur angle ( their hips can drop lower ), less knee protrusion over the toes and less shin angle. What happens in skiing with a shorter torso longer femur and heel lifts is the knees get shifted forward also, this leads to a serious counter balance act on skis often leading to the skier over arching the lumbar spine in effort to get some weight distributed back over the heels by moving the shoulders back over a shorter lever system. The forward knee translation is he!! On the quads too. I have this body type and lift in 3/4” heels but ski with either a flat foot or even a dropped heel depending on the boot. I stick also with boots that have minimal forward lean.

Thanks for this, further excited to get out on my now flatter boots to give it a try! My only goal besides fit when getting this pair of boots was to be as upright as possible because my previous boots had my knees so far forward I truly don't know how I skied them.. except that I was skiing WAY more then so I was probably stronger and able to deal more but I always felt very unbalanced and trying to do any 3D terrain was a nightmare because I literally had almost no ability to extend my legs I could only compress further in bumps etc. I felt more upright than ever in these current boots in the shop, but then the balance of my weight distribution was improved with the heel lift so I reluctantly agreed to keep them, not knowing how big they were! Now I'm feeling that although my static balance was supposedly improved per this machine, it doesn't hold true once I'm on skis and there are other forces at play. This is also interesting for the lumbar spine perspective. I have quite a curve in my lower back to begin with, so I need to consciously round my back more for certain exercises etc., I find this almost impossible to do on skis right now and stay in balance with my upper body despite the fact that I know I shouldn't be sticking my butt out.