Alignment

[sleddog]

I'm wondering how many or you ladies have had an alignment evaluation done? Very few of us are built with perfect skeletal structures and many would benefit greatly from an alignment - sometimes something as simple as a cuff alignment in a boot will correct some problems - others need to go so far as to have a lift on a boot if you've got a leg length discrepancy or cants put under the binding (or ground into the boot sole).

Any comments?

 

[BatGirl]

I've had to have one done as my knees are all sorts of messed up, and I've got pronation issues. When I first started, I couldn't get a right outside edge, so turning was a struggle as was trying to attempt anything out of a wedge glide. So I went for an alignment evaluation to find out what could be done. Turns out, my knee alignment is out 2 degrees, but my lower leg is 3 degrees out. So my boot cuffs are now aligned at 5 degrees out, and I've got wedges under my bindings. Most of the wedges are 2 degrees on each foot. Those wedges may be removed now that I've got ortho. inserts, as those have wedges on them as well.

It's made such a difference in my skiing. I highly recommend this for anyone who thinks they might have issues like mine.

 

[BatGirl]

OK, sorry. That was a bit rushed, and I left a few important things out. Like it took me three tries to get fitted properly. The first one was on the fly as we were at Sutton and thought the bulk of the problem was my lack of skills. A footbed was put in with more wedging under the insole and a heel wedge that helped stop a hot spot on my foot but didn't help correct the edging trouble. The instructor really didn't help either by insisting for 5 days that my skis were too long (I've since proved him wrong and can't wait to show him so).

The second attempt was at a ski shop (where I originally bought my boots and have great respect for their technical know-how) that did only a further cuff alignment (to the maximum allowable), using a pivoting protractor (half-cylinder you stand on with an extension up to the knee). The knees looked OK once the cuff alignment was done and felt fine in the shop. However, once it was taken to the slopes, it turned out the adjustments had only made the problems worse. I'll never forget looking at Comprex, with me nearly in tears, after several terrible runs and saying, "I KNOW I'm better than this!"

Obviously, something else was the issue. Semi-custom footbeds with heel wedges and cuff alignment to maximum allowable have not helped. I've been told by one instructor and two trained bootfitters that the problem is elsewhere (skis too long; out of shape; not enough time on skis).

The problem was, this is a chronic issue with me. The edging problem shows up in my skating, too. Sure, it could be me, but I could tell from the problems I was having on my skis that it wasn't. It had to be either the boots or the skis, if not both.

With that in mind, shims of duct tape were inserted at the boot/binding interface. That seemed to work, and there was some hope that the "undercanted" theory was correct. The confirmation was when the third expert bootfitter, a race team fitter, looked at the boots and the work done thus far. Using ankle range-of-motion tests and shimming wedges (devised by Green Mountain Orthotics), Brian B. of SkiCenter in DC confirmed the heel wedge and instep control, and suggested 1.5 degrees to 2 degrees of canting in addition to the boot cuff adjustments.

Moral of this extended story - if you go for an alignment evaluation, you STILL don't like the way your boots fit, and it's not your skills holding you back, go for another. And another. And another. Until you've got things working the way you want them to and the way they should. Because it took me eight months, three bootfitters, and several different attempts to get mine to work.

 

[volklgirl]

Oh, and beware that your alignment issues may, and probably will, need to be re-addressed if you change boots!

My first Langes...3deg out on the right, 2.5deg out on the left .
Salomons...no canting needed at all
New Langes...1deg out on the left, but the cant soles only come in 1.5deg

Weird, huhn ?? Also, if you have any of the system bindings, your alignment may need to be done with the footbed (if not severe) or by planing the boot soles.

And your fore-aft balance may even be affected by the type of binding you use.

 

[Marigee]

I have custom footbeds and heel lifts. I had canting done directly to my boots b/c I have 2 pair of skis (not much of a quiver!), like to demo - and may add more skis in the future. I have had my boots tweaked several times over the past year that I have had them. They spent 1 1/2 hours with me just last week.

Batgirl - Brian B at the Ski Center in D.C. sold me my boots and has worked with me over the past year tweaking them. Brian E. has worked with my son. They work with the racing teams in the area and know their stuff.

 

[Snowsong]

I've always thought an alignment should go hand in hand with a good bootfitting, but I guess at some shops it doesn't always. I always have an alignment done when buying new equipment. If you require a cant, I definitely recommend getting it done to the boot if you have more than one pair of skis. Also, with some of the newer integrated bindings, it is not always possible to put a cant under the binding. With my present boots, there were enough adjustments that I didn't need the cant, the cuff alignment did the trick.

 

[Snowsong]

P.S. Sleddog...I think it's really cool we have a female bootfitter on this site. It is an area of interest to me, and I have yet to come across a female boot fitter. You are in the minority. Do you ever have trouble with guys taking your advice?

 

[sleddog]

I never had problems with the men. Since I'm PSIA Level 3 certified (2 years ago) and one of the trainers on the Sunburst ski school with Arcmeister (one of the Epic Ski Instructors), it gives me more credibility than many of the college kids that work at the shop.

I've recently taken leave of the job at the shop though due to some family issues, but may return in the future.

 

[Little Lightning]

Knock Knee women skiers

Sleddog,

I was skiing at Breckenridge a couple of weeks ago and when I was on the lift I was observing the skiers as they came down the mtn. I noticed that 95% of the women were skiing in a knock knee position while the men, no matter how low their level of skiing, had knees aligned over their toes.

I asked my ski instructor friend who works with beginners what he advises women when he sees this and he basically said that it is the bootfitters job.

I mentioned this to another instructor in the hot tub at my condo and he started talking about alignment, orthotics, etc.

Someone fitted those boots they were wearing, they were skiing well enough to get down a skied off blue run so they probably had a lesson or two and yet the alignment issues were very obvious.

So my question is how does a woman know they are not aligned, and is orthotics, etc. the anwer or is there a technique that could help these women achieve a better position?

Kathi

 

[sleddog]

Little Lightning,

I don't think you can assume that these people have been fitted properly for ski boots. I know an awful lot of people who go to ski swaps, big tent sales, or big box retailers like Sports Authority and just assume that they take the same size ski boot as street shoe. It's a hard sell to lower level recreational skiers that the boots should be really tight in the shop since they haven't packed out yet. I also have had several students that shopped at one of the competitors in town who are not equipped to fine tune a boot, so they get "fit" in too big of a boot so that the shop doesn't have to spend time on a boot that they're unable to custom fit.

As far as who needs alignment and how you go about it, the 1st thing one needs is a boot with an adjustable cuff that someone takes the time to set, 2nd is a custom footbed to support the foot and keep it stabilized. These two things take care of many alignment issues. If someone feels that they can turn in one direction better than the other or if they've hit a plateau in they're skiing ability and are trying to improve, it's probably time to have an alignment evaluation. Unfortunately alignment evals and canting/ planing the boot soles are fairly expensive and many customers don't care whether they improve or not - if they're having fun and skiing with the family, that may be the extent of their aspirations.

When watching other skiers, many women appear to be knock kneed but it may be the "Q" angle you're seeing. When you watch them is one knee "tucked" behind the other so that they can get the ski on edge or are you seeing space between the legs?

I also don't agree with the instructor who said it's the boot fitter's job to check for alignment. If I'm a paying customer of a ski school, trying to improve my skiing and an instructor sees that my ability is compromised by an alignment issue, I think they should be "enligtening" their students to what an alignment might do to skyrocket their ability. Shops can correct a lot of an alignment issue but they're somwhat compromised by that fact that they are unable to see what's happening on the snow. They are statically correcting an active sport. The final amount of canting one does should be under the scrutiny of an instructor who knows what to watch- in my L3 exam we were required to understand the connection between canting and skier improvement and be able to recommend some changes. Several in my exam group had cant strips in their pockets and fixed some problems of skiers in our group for their teaching portion of the exam.

Unfortunately many women are the last ones in the family to get equipment because they see on a daily basis what the family expenditures are - so if the kids outgrow equipment they get it first. That may be changing as the ski and boot manufacturers
are now catering to womens needs in equipment - long overdue!!!

Sorry if I've rambled!:D

Nancy

 

[ski diva]

Sleddog, I just have to compliment you on an outstanding post! A great explanation that makes so much sense.

Thanks so much!

 

[Little Lightning]

This is not a ski photo but they looked very much like the woman in the photo on the left. I'm curious as to what is happening when a woman looks like this on skis, is it alignment or is it Q-angle.

I was also disappointed that both men ski instructors brushed it off as if it was unimportant.

Kathi

 

[sleddog]

On 1st glance the picture looks like an alignment issue but to play devil's advocate here .... if you've ever skied in equipment that's way too big for you, you'd tend to do anything you can to maintain some amount of control or "buy an edge". Let's assume that the skier that you're seeing is in a boot that's 2 sizes too big which isn't all that uncommon. They can put 3 pairs of socks on, and probably stay relatively warm, but when they try to put a ski on edge nothing happens because their foot is slopping around in the boot. To compensate, they end up getting into the "virgin" wedge so that the ski might respond and give them a little control. If you took that same skier and moved them into a boot that fit, they may have a very different look to their skiing.

 

[Little Lightning]

Thanks, Sleddog, what your saying makes sense as these skiers were pretty low level, however, it was interesting that the men, some of who were worse than the women, didn't exhibit the same body position. Their legs were lined up in a much better position over their boots. Do beginner men get better fitting boots?

Kathi

 

[sleddog]

The women might have been in larger boots especially if the rental shops don't account for the drop in boot size when converting from a men's to a ladies' size boot. The knock kneed position is going to be more noticable though in the women when you take the "Q" angle into account. At this point though I'm just speculating as to what might be going on in their skiing.

 

[liquidfeet]

Q angle is real. Just go to the gym and do one-legged squats in front of a mirror. Make sure your foot is pointed straight ahead. Watch what your knee does. Does it move inward, or track straight ahead towards the mirror? If it tracks inward, there's no shoe problem. It's the Q angle factor.

After paying about $170.00 for canting and custom footbeds at one outfitter, I feel I can go back anytime to have adjustments made to my boots. They've been canted, ground, punched, foot-bedded, and I-don't-know-what. What I really need is for my bootfitter to see me ski, but that's not going to happen. He's suggested my taking a lesson from a friend of his so his friend can report to him on my skiing. I'm just not going to put out that money. We will work it out somehow.

The skis definitely behave better after all this analysis and all these adjustments than they did before. I get adjusted for free anytime I have a problem. It can take 2 to 3 hours each visit; that's the only thing holding me back; whoops, no, embarrassment at showing up yet again holds me back too. I respect my bootfitter; he can only respond to what I report; he's good at analysis, and is willing to try new things. We'll see what happens this season.

I recommend finding one bootfitter you respect, then develop a relationship of trust, and go back to this same person over and over again. I am happy with my arrangement.

 

[Little Lightning]

Sleddog,

I talked to my bootfitter today and she also pointed out that the conditions could have contributed to some of it. It wasn't eastern, icy skiing but it was hardpack and fast. She said that many women at that level fear going downhill and will sit back, putting them in somewhat of a snowplow position.

We had a long talk about women's gear. She agreed that the industry needs to do more to get women in better fitting equipment, especially in the rental department. When my sister-in-law rented ski equipment in Summit County, I think they had women's boots but the package with women's skis cost a lot more to rent. So my sister-in-law ended up with unisex skis. As I remember, the boots were a decent fit for her.

Out here, skiing is a big industry and even in places like Sports Authority, you can find someone who has some knowledge of boot fitting. Tweaking the boots, no, but a reasonable fit, yes. I went into Colorado Ski and Golf, a place I wouldn't consider for good boot fitting and was told exactly what boot I should buy. They didn't have it but the guy knew enough to steer me the right direction.

Here there are so many shops and deals on equipment that no one should be in boots 2 sizes to big. My last pair of boots, Lange L8's I paid $80 for. Granted, they were a couple of seasons old but I got 75days of skiing on them. When the liners started going bad I just bought a new pair at 40% off.

My boot fitter also said that the ski companies are coming around and starting to do more for women. I hope she's right.

Kathi

 

[sleddog]

I agree that particularly in big mountain country you're more likely to find someone at the big boxes that can steer you in the right direction, but they're not necessarily taking dorsiflexion or lack of it into consideration - so although the boot may be the right size, it may be too stiff for a skier's body type which also puts them in the back seat - if you can't flex a boot at the ankles, you tend to drop the hips instead, putting you in the back seat which in turn causes the skis to accelerate. The rating of boots for performance doesn't take skier joint flexibility into consideration so the salespeople need to look at the complete skier.

My latest experience with SA was a friend's guest at a Ladies Ski day at a small private club. She was obviously in brand new equipment and as I walked up to her and introduced myself I blurted out that her boots looked too big for her - she looked at me like I had a third eye in the middle of my forehead and asked how I could possibly know that. She was in a 27.5 boot and her feet just looked too far out of proportion for her body size. She had tried on a boot in her size (probably still to big, but at least her street shoe size) and the salesman suggested that she move up a size so she could wiggle her feet more in the boot. Needless to say she had no control of her skis and took the boots back after skiing in them for the day.

I've also had several customers who wanted to possibly sue the binding manufacturers for malfunctioning bindings. They'd have me torque test their bindings in the Wintersteiger Binding Torque tester and when everything tested properly I'd take a look at the boot fit - several customers were in a boot that I could get a fist in behind their heel with their foot in the boot. The bindings didn't have a chance to release because their knee was blown up before any force was put on the binding.

Stuff like that makes me scream!!!

 

[volklgirl]

several customers were in a boot that I could get a fist in behind their heel with their foot in the boot. The bindings didn't have a chance to release because their knee was blown up before any force was put on the binding.

Stuff like that makes me scream!!!

Funny you should say that...

At one of our swaps this year, I watched a Mom and teenager try to pick out boots for the teen. Mom asked her shoe size, and I mentally calculated what shell size they should be looking for. Mom brought her the appropriate size but child said 'too big'. I watched them go up about 3 more sizes, then I asked Mom if she knew how to shell fit. Mom says....'I don't know anything about this'. Hmmmm.
So, I shell fit, and guess what - a full fist behind the foot! I finally explained how a boot should fit and we found an appropriate boot.
Arrrgh!

 

[volklgirl]

What I really need is for my bootfitter to see me ski, but that's not going to happen. He's suggested my taking a lesson from a friend of his so his friend can report to him on my skiing. I'm just not going to put out that money. We will work it out somehow.

Check to see if the shop has a video player. Get a buddy to do a quick video and take it in to him. That way he can see you in all your glory .