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Help Needed: A Tale of Two Boots

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ugh, I thought I'd solved my boot problem once and for all but I'm having issues again and it's casting a gloomy shadow over my season.

On the one hand, I have the Lange World Cup ZJ+ junior race boot with a 110 flex and a 92mm last that a bootfitter at the Start House outside Truckee recommended for me. It's snug, which is a rare find for me. But it's also a Lange race boot; it has forward lean that makes my calves scream despite a heel lift (I have appallingly little dorsiflexion and cannot tolerate the boot without the lifts), and as the day goes on the boot gets stiffer and less responsive, meaning that I feel as though my leg isn't connected to the boot well. Plus my feet just freakin' hurt when I wear these. They are definitely not too narrow in the heel, but they might be everywhere else. The pain is a major bummer.

But despite the pain and misery I ski well in these boots. I am confident and actually making progress staying centered and consistently balanced, which has allowed me to progress. Except that my calves and feet start howling after three runs so I have been doing really short days; so I'm skiing well, but less often than usual.

Then there's the $100 pair of AT boots I bought online in a total shot in the dark because I wanted to have a touring set-up but didn't have much money. They are 2015-ish K2 Pinnacle 110s with intuition liners. And they actually fit REALLY well; like, I don't get how it's possible for them to fit so well. They seem to sit a little lower/shorter on my calf/shin than the Langes and they are medium-soft in terms of flex. My calves and feet feel way better in these boots and they are surprisingly snug.

But when I skied in these boots (the K2s) all of a sudden I was in the backseat a lot more than usual despite a very concerted effort to work on my form. And I am way less confident, especially about going into the woods or a bumped-up run wearing these K2 boots. I use these boots with my Marker Baron frame touring bindings and a pair of older skis (Dynastar Cham 97s) and the frame bindings make the whole set-up pretty heavy. I don't have heel lifts, Hotronics, or anything else in these boots. Right now I've not skied both boots with the same skis. The K2s go with my Dynastar Cham 97s and the Lange's go with the Volkl 90Eights.

What's going on here and what, if anything, can I do about it?Screenshot 2020-02-14 20.28.25.pngScreenshot 2020-02-14 20.59.35.png
 

vickie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I would play around with reducing the forward lean. First, does the boot allow for any adjustment of forward lean? @contesstant, what options have you tried for this ... shims under the toes?

When the forward lean is too great, it forces you to compensate by moving your weight back ... going backseat. Per Jeff Bergeron. My boots had an adjustment for this which brought me to a reasonably balanced state, so no need for shim under the toes.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks, @vickie ! Weirdly, the Lange's feel like they have more forward lean, but it's the K2s that are putting me in the backseat. I can't wrap my head around what's going on.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Maybe you haven't had enough time on the AT boots yet? Obviously, they ski a little different from your race boots, but maybe you haven't quite discovered how to make them work for you?

(random thoughts from someone who knows next to nothing about this)
 

Jenny

Angel Diva
I’ve got nothing for you except that my ski week instructor told me I was over flexing my boots and that it could be what was putting me in the backseat a little bit, because apparently then you try to overcompensate with your upper body. We changed the flex and he said I looked good. So, maybe?
 

mustski

Angel Diva
Too much forward lean can definitely be a problem but stiffening up as the day progresses is a head scratcher. Normally boots would soften with use and warming weather. I would start with a bootfitter and get the flex softened a tad. I also have terrifyingly horrible dorsiflexion and most bootfitters seem to prefer a stiff boot and heel lifts. I still have heel lifts but moved to a softer boot and prefer it. There is a happy medium between too soft and too stiff. Just call me Goldilocks!
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I just picked up a pair of the same boot, the Rossi Hero ZJ and immediately put an Intuition liner in mine as they STILL didn't fit with the stock race liner. I had to make sure it was a low volume liner, so I got the Race FX liner. The first day in these boots, my knees and quads were on FIRE (and I'd already skied 45 days this season!) I knew they had too much forward lean, but I tried them out anyway. So, I had a toe shim installed on them (and grippier soles, too.) MUCH better. (Oh, my calves were also really sore, too.)

My previous boots (which I also just picked up at the start of the season) are MUCH more upright, and even at a 105 flex, felt stiffer than the 120 flex of the ZJs. The more upright boot, I have discovered, while comfortable for the quads, actually pushed me back and made it difficult to "find" the tips of my skis. With the more upright boot, I was constantly shoving my shins against the tongues in an effort to pressure the tips. With the ZJ, I just stand there and am already in position to pressure the tips much more readily, if that makes sense.

I'd tell you to play around with toe shims, but not all bindings will accommodate them as an experiment. But, fore/aft is not hard to measure statically to at least get into the ballpark. Also, a heel lift with a boot with aggressive forward lean-this seems counter-intuitive. Was this a suggestion, or just something you had and decided to try? Because to me, it sounds like you are just doubling down on the ramp angle inside the boot. BUT if it is a necessity, then I'd try lifting the toe by a few mm outside the boot. You can do this standing by placing something firm under the toes of both boots and just standing there. If you feel more stacked and like your knees are not in front of your toes, you're onto something. Play around with different thicknesses at that point. What binding do you have on the Volkl?

As for hot spots in the boot, and sore feet: the beauty of a race boot is there are never-ending options to create space. This boot is really tiny along the arch and up the ankle, which for ME, is wonderful because I am hyper-mobile and need to be locked down there. Since you are not flexible there, that tightness might need a little relief in the form of grinding or punching the shell in that area. Rigidity of the footbed also comes into play. But my suspicion is that you need to create some room near the arch and you'll get some instant relief.

As for the stiffness--I am personally finding the flex of this boot is pretty consistent in the fore/aft plane no matter the temperature. Lowest temps I've skied it in are mid-teens, highest in mid-30s. It's honestly the first boot I've ever owned that felt pretty consistent no matter what. This also tells me I'm standing at about the right place in the boot. I'm thinking your fore/aft is off, and your feet and ankles get even stiffer as you ski.

Do you have access to a boot fitter who is well-versed in setting up race boots? The ZJ is a really, really nice boot and has endless options for tweaking but you need experienced hands and eyes doing that tweaking. I've been in 6 boots in the past 5 seasons, and the smoothness of the flex of this boot thanks to perhaps the Dual Core shell is far better than any of the others I've skied. I think if you can get your stance dialed in and create some space for you arch, you might be a lot happier!
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@contesstant thank you so much for your feedback; it gives me a lot to think about and tinker with; toe shims had not even occurred to me. The ZJs are a pain in the neck in some ways, but they feel very close to being just right. I think they are worth the effort.
Meantime, I may put some spoilers in the AT boots and see what happens.
Thank you for your guidance.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@contesstant the Intuition Race FX liners: do they allow you to keep the liners in the boots or do you have to put the liners on, then put your foot/liner in the shell? Also, are they any warmer than the stock liner? Thanks again!
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I keep the liners in the boots and took the laces out. I love this boot the more I ski it. I’ll post more later. I have more questions for you that I’ll ask later!
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Oh, and they are warmer, yes.
What bindings are on each pair of skis?
As an experiment, I’d go ski each pair of skis with the ZJ then swap boots and ski each pair again. Pay attention to where your knees are in relation to your toes. Look at if the ski has a binding mount that is forward compared to the other ski.
What size is your ZJ?
 

SarahXC

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I have appallingly little dorsiflexion and cannot tolerate the boot without the lifts.
This is me too! Have you found any solutions? I am seeing a PT, stretching and rolling out and such... but months in still seem to be nowhere close to a “normal” skiers range of motion? (Knees able to extend to wall with toes 4” away... in those types of range of motion tests.) Seems I have come across the opinion that stiffer boots are possibly better for those with less range of motion? I know every skier has a different opinion, just hoped you might share what experience you have had?[/QUOTE]
 

SkiGAP

Angel Diva
Not sure this is worth a new thread so I am posting here. I am thinking of testing alpine skiing again after years of tele. I have a pair of Nordica Beast 10 alpine boots that are about 15 years old, and some Nordica Dobermans (that I never really liked) at about 13 years old. Will they be ok for me to ski in again or does the plastic degrade over time too much? Just checking, I don't want to double eject due to a boot failure...

I don't want to buy new boots just for a day of skiing...
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
Right now I've not skied both boots with the same skis. The K2s go with my Dynastar Cham 97s and the Lange's go with the Volkl 90Eights.

If possible, I would definitely try both boots with both skis. I've had boots that I loved with some skis and hated with others (frame touring bindings). If anything, it will give you pretty solid information on if the bindings are the issue or the boots.
 

Tennessee

Angel Diva
Hi Sallycat! I have been thinking about you and wondering how I could help with your boot(s) problem. Boot issues are the worst! Nothing occurred to me earlier but just now I saw something in a post about “delta angle” in bindings. Just struck me that the delta angle in your bindings and the ramp angle in your boot (with the heel lifts) might be something to investigate. With your dorsiflexion issue I think you are on the right track with heel lifts. Probably why I have to have NO ramp angle — I have A LOT of dorsiflexion. Any ramp angle puts me too far forward. I also like a really soft boot and think that may be related to dorsiflexion. It’s an interesting puzzle. I hope you have made some good progress with the problem. Just wanted to say hi to you and let you know I’m pulling for you to solve this issue! I remember our Mammoth and Yosemite and hot springs trip fondly. Had a great time skiing and touring with you that SUMMER, lol! Your new life in Vermont sounds awesome! Best, Julia
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hi @Tennessee !! So great to hear from you!! I have such great memories of Mammoth and Yosemite! What a trip that was!
Thanks for pointing me toward ramp angle; the more things I can play around with the more likely I am to find a solution; I'm still tinkering.
Hope you're having a great season!
 

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