A-Basin cutting back on season pass sales

[Christy]

You can ski A Basin on the Ikon Pass. You can buy a day ticket. A quick Google shows A Basin still had season passes available in December. This is really not the draconian picture you are painting.

There is a certain unwillingness to point the finger at oneself among skiers. When the traffic is terrible or the lift lines are long, I hear much blame put on crowds, but never any acknowledgement that WE are part of the crowd.

What happened here in WA, with the complaints to the state AG and front page headlines, was the finger was pointed at Vail Resorts and Alterra for overselling passes. If someone buys a season pass, they need to be able to a) get to the hill and b) ski. When a ski resort sells so many that you can't get a parking space, and you spend more time standing in lift lines than skiing, that isn't "access." I didn't actually hear animosity toward fellow skiers.

 

[Christy]

My impression is that most ABasin skiers are all over the place when the snow is good and terrain is 100% open. Taos on a Saturday morning only feels crowded for 20 minutes when everyone is loading Lift 1 from the main base. After that, if the Ridge is open and then the Kachina Lift opens up at 10:00, the lower mountain doesn't feel crowded at all. The CCC for Alta is comparable to ABasin and Taos. Alta on a powder day will max out parking in the morning, but the only reason the slopes may feel crowded is when some of the advanced/expert terrain isn't open because ski patrol still have work to do.

Crystal is generally like that too. But on a parkout/sold out day? Yuk. Have you been to those places when you know they were at capacity?

 

[contesstant]

You can ski A Basin on the Ikon Pass. You can buy a day ticket. A quick Google shows A Basin still had season passes available in December. This is really not the draconian picture you are painting.


What happened here in WA, with the complaints to the state AG and front page headlines, was the finger was pointed at Vail Resorts and Alterra for overselling passes. If someone buys a season pass, they need to be able to a) get to the hill and b) ski. When a ski resort sells so many that you can't get a parking space, and you spend more time standing in lift lines than skiing, that isn't "access." I didn't actually hear animosity toward fellow skiers.

I’ve wondered if the day will come where season pass holders push back against the resorts and the Mega passes. Because you’re not wrong — if season pass holders can’t park because of over capacity due to ikon pass holders, well, that’s pretty crappy. I still want to know how much the resorts make off ikon passes. Not in food and beverage, just in % of passes sold. It’s one of those dirty little secrets, just like injury statistics are.

 

[marzNC]

Crystal is generally like that too. But on a parkout/sold out day? Yuk. Have you been to those places when you know they were at capacity?

Last Saturday Taos didn't have any Ikon reservations left as of a couple days before. The Kachina Lift had just opened the day before for the first time this season. No idea how many people were around, but I would guess there were people parking along the road. That's pretty common on Saturdays. As for the slopes, it wasn't overly crowded. Nothing like it can get in the east on a weekend.

The only destination resorts I've skied on holiday weekends in recent years are Telluride and Steamboat. Have to admit that for the Saturday of President's Day, we opted to book a full-day semi-private lesson for an advanced tour and to avoid lift lines. Getting lunch was a zoo. However, the slopes weren't particularly crazy during the busiest period from 11:00-2:00. Telluride is isolated enough that I don't think it ever gets over crowded.

 

[marzNC]

The fact that several Ikon Partners moved to requiring Ikon Reservations this season shows that they are well aware of the risk of having too many Ikon holders.

ABasin is clearly demonstrating that people are willing to pay a bit more for emptier slopes. Or as is said in the ski industry, "a better experience." What people aren't as likely to do is drive farther. I was surprised at how many folks from the Denver/Boulder area who I talked to at Winter Park had never heard of Wolf Creek. That included a crew of young adults who had gotten up at 6am to make it to one of the MJ parking lots by 8am on a Saturday morning during early season.

 

[Christy]

Last Saturday Taos didn't have any Ikon reservations left as of a couple days before. The Kachina Lift had just opened the day before for the first time this season. No idea how many people were around, but I would guess there were people parking along the road. That's pretty common on Saturdays. As for the slopes, it wasn't overly crowded. Nothing like it can get in the east on a weekend.

The only destination resorts I've skied on holiday weekends in recent years are Telluride and Steamboat. Have to admit that for the Saturday of President's Day, we opted to book a full-day semi-private lesson for an advanced tour and to avoid lift lines. Getting lunch was a zoo. However, the slopes weren't particularly crazy during the busiest period from 11:00-2:00. Telluride is isolated enough that I don't think it ever gets over crowded.

My point was, these limits do not result in solitude, and they aren't needlessly exclusionary for a select few that get to ski, which is what had been argued. And that it's often (usually?) about facility capacity, not whether the actual runs feel crowded compared to the east. I don't think any ski area would limit passes for that. But if parking and buses fill and many are turned away? Then yes.

 

[Christy]

I’ve wondered if the day will come where season pass holders push back against the resorts and the Mega passes. Because you’re not wrong — if season pass holders can’t park because of over capacity due to ikon pass holders, well, that’s pretty crappy. I still want to know how much the resorts make off ikon passes. Not in food and beverage, just in % of passes sold. It’s one of those dirty little secrets, just like injury statistics are.

That's what happened at Stevens and to a lesser degree Crystal. Funny what a bunch of complaints to the AG, a petition with 40k signatures and some front page headlines will do. I suspect you have to be mostly a local use type place, not a destination resort.

At Stevens you will still be turned away if you get there after 8 am but the GM really figured out the needed staffing/housing/etc to keep the rest of Stevens firing on all cylinders so people are pretty mollified, especially since she is very visible, directing lift lines and parking and posting online. And I think all the bad publicity really let people know that you really do need to be there by 8, or come later in the afternoon or for night skiing. There's a lot to be said for just having an understanding about that.

 

[Christy]

And then there are the ski areas that just won't join up with these corporations in the first place. Check out the guiding philosophy. It's worth noting they haven't suffered from staff shortages.

The world-class WA ski area that hasn’t changed with the times

In the age of exorbitantly priced season passes for luxury ski resorts, Mt. Baker Ski Area in Whatcom County has retained its funky vibe and mom-and-pop sensibilities.

www.seattletimes.com

With just 1,500 vertical feet spread across 1,000 acres, Mt. Baker is the most diminutive ski area in the Washington Cascades. There are three day lodges, but no overnight accommodations. Forget après-ski. The place clears out after lifts close at 3:30 p.m. Day tickets still cost less than $100 from a walk-up window. Prices don’t fluctuate based on demand and you can’t buy in advance. Tickets still hang from wickets on your jacket for manual inspection — no RFID cards or scanners in sight.

Nothing about Mt. Baker feels like skiing in the 21st century, an era of industry consolidation, multiresort passes and high-tech investments.

How has this place remained so stubbornly independent? The answer to this mom-and-pop riddle is “father and daughters”: longtime general manager Duncan Howat, 77; CEO Gwyn Howat, 56; and marketing director Amy Howat Trowbridge, 50.

The Howat family works at the behest of a small group of local owners (the family also owns shares) who have been careful to stay debt-free. Duncan Howat began working at Mt. Baker in 1968 and has a simple guiding philosophy: “Employees first. Customers second. Shareholders third.”

That approach has kept Mt. Baker intentionally small even as the ski industry has gone big.

“It’s not a place for a one-off vacation,” Gwyn Howat said. “We intend for this place to be a part of people’s life in winter in the Pacific Northwest.”

...

With so many multiresort passes available that the savvy skier needs a spreadsheet to track them all, Gwyn has unflinchingly rejected every offer, with the exception of a three-day season pass exchange at kindred spirit Mt. Hood Meadows in Oregon. Despite not playing the industry’s new game, Mt. Baker consistently reaches its annual season pass sales quota, though having a captive market in Whatcom and Skagit counties helps.

 

[contesstant]

We need more Mt Bakers!!

 

[rhymeandreason]

We need more Mt Bakers!!

Mt Baker is in a unique position of not only having no lodging, but also no possibility of building lodging, so it will never be as attractive to alterra or vail as other resorts with hotels or space to build hotels. Other independent ski areas will only exist as long as there are people, usually children of the owners, who are willing to run it. Case in point - deer valley, solitude, sugarbush etc. Running a ski resort is a gargantuan responsibility and carries a lot of risk in these days of shortened ski seasons and reduced snowfall. I honestly can’t blame families for selling out.

 

[Christy]

None of the WA Cascades ski areas have lodging or the possibility of lodging except Crystal, which has a minimal amount. What they do have is 2-3 million people within day trip distance. I imagine that's what made Steven Pass, a day use ski area 20 miles from nearest very small town, attractive to Vail Resorts. And it's why apparently the big guys have made offers to Mt Baker and White Pass.

 

[rhymeandreason]

None of the WA Cascades ski areas have lodging or the possibility of lodging except Crystal, which has a minimal amount. What they do have is 2-3 million people within day trip distance. I imagine that's what made Steven Pass, a day use ski area 20 miles from nearest very small town, attractive to Vail Resorts. And it's why apparently the big guys have made offers to Mt Baker and White Pass.

Yes, that is why I said “never be attractive AS other resorts”. The price wasn’t right for mt baker and white pass, but it clearly was for deer valley, solitude, Hunter mountain, etc. The list goes on.

 

[marzNC]

Mt Baker is in a unique position of not only having no lodging, but also no possibility of building lodging, so it will never be as attractive to alterra or vail as other resorts with hotels or space to build hotels. Other independent ski areas will only exist as long as there are people, usually children of the owners, who are willing to run it. Case in point - deer valley, solitude, sugarbush etc. Running a ski resort is a gargantuan responsibility and carries a lot of risk in these days of shortened ski seasons and reduced snowfall. I honestly can’t blame families for selling out.

Every region has it's own stories of corporate buy-outs and family owned/operated mountains. The number of ski resorts, large and small, that have been sold multiple times in the last few decades is a bit staggering. What are getting much less common are ski areas/resorts that are only open during the winter season.

Wolf Creek Ski Area in southeast Colorado has plenty in common with Mt Baker. Certainly gets plenty of snowstorms. As do Monarch and Ski Cooper in Colorado as independent ski areas that aren't ever going to become resorts with slopeside lodging, although those are smaller mountains than WCSA. However, the driving time from the urban center (Denver, Boulder) is longer so not really day trip distance.

I was a bit surprised at how many people I talked to at Winter Park last December from the Denver area who had never heard of WCSA. They are spoiled by having so many options within a 1-2 hour drive for day trips. The college students from Oklahoma and Texas seem to make the drive to WCSA on a regular basis. Usually stuff a bunch of friends into a large house 20-30 minutes drive away.

January 2023

What does independence offer Wolf Creek Ski Area?

WOLF CREEK SKI AREA – As he prepares to recline into the fast-approaching chair, Davey Pitcher cranes his neck attempting to read the numbers inscribed in the concrete foundation of the Treasure Stoke...

www.durangoherald.com

January 2017

In 40th year running Wolf Creek Ski Area, family aims to keep things simple

PAGOSA SPRINGS - Another morning at Wolf Creek Ski Area, and Davey Pitcher is scrambling. The wooden skeleton of a $1.2 million conveyor lift facility is up, and there's work

gazette.com

 

[marzNC]

Yes, that is why I said “never be attractive AS other resorts”. The price wasn’t right for mt baker and white pass, but it clearly was for deer valley, solitude, Hunter mountain, etc. The list goes on.

As with all real estate . . . location, location, location. For the ski industry in the 2020s, distance from urban populations and weather patterns are additional major factors for looking to the future.

Without investments in snowmaking, even though ABasin is at very high altitude and depends mostly on natural snow, had they stuck with "business as usual" not sure how successful they would be in the next decade.

 

[rhymeandreason]

As with all real estate . . . location, location, location. For the ski industry in the 2020s, distance from urban populations and weather patterns are additional major factors for looking to the future.

Without investments in snowmaking, even though ABasin is at very high altitude and depends mostly on natural snow, had they stuck with "business as usual" not sure how successful they would be in the next decade.

Hoping for the best for A basin. It might seem like I don’t support the independent ski areas as much as others here, but the opposite it true. I am one of a multitude of skiers who learned to ski under the lights at nashoba and then moved on to the “big” mountain of wachusett. Luckily, Mr crowley’s son, and Mr Fletcher’s son are involved and want to continue running their family resorts.

I didn’t visit a non independent ski area until I was in my 30’s. I want them to succeed, but I can’t deny what I see. Even places in British Columbia are suffering.

British Columbia Ski Resort Won't Open This Season Due to Lack of Snow - SnowBrains

Clearwater Ski Hill in British Columbia, Canada, won’t open this season due to a lack of snow. Related: How to Be a More Sustainable Skier Board members of the non-profit Clearwater Ski Hill, 80 miles north of Kamloops, announced on Facebook last week. The resort had planned to open in January...

snowbrains.com

This resort has not been able to link two consecutive years of being fully open in the past ten due to snow conditions.

 

[Christy]

Headline in the Seattle Times today:

Supply and demand govern Crystal’s approach to overcrowding. Prepare to pay up

Like we've talked about, their approach to overcrowding once they went on Ikon was to limit, to 7 days, the Ikon benefit; they tripled the cost of a season pass in the last five years (to $1799--more than Palisades Tahoe, Mammoth or Taos, the article points out); and raised day ticket prices to some of the highest in North America.

It reportedly has worked. There were no parkouts this winter, and people quoted at least said it has not been crowded. I wouldn't know; I haven't been this year.

"But if you are a weekend warrior, between season passes and day tickets that have plateaued at $185, Crystal is now priced squarely in the upper echelon of the North American ski industry — by design. Prepare to pay up."

Supply and demand govern Crystal’s approach to overcrowding. Prepare to pay up

To tackle overcrowding in a time of surging outdoor recreation, Crystal Mountain sells among the most expensive season passes and lift tickets in North America.

www.seattletimes.com