How flexible is boot flex?

[flyingsquirrel]

It's August! So clearly I'm back on my ski boot nonsense.

Quick recap:
- new skier (1 season under my belt), advancing relatively quickly (ended season 1 very comfortable on all blues and some blacks)
- learned at end of last season that my original boots were fitted incorrectly and were both too long and too wide (fml REI - never making that mistake again)
- got fitted in park city by an AWESOME fitter than suggested the Salomon S/Max 90 in a 22.5 but waffled as they fit pretty snugly / comfortably out of the box and may still be slightly big but BSLs of most 21.5s would not fit my current ski bindings (they're integrated and it seems like would need to be completely replaced)

The new question:
I know boot flex is completely relative and adjustable w/ bolts and boot fitter magic, but how far does the ~magic~ go?

I randomly felt compelled to look at some boot options online today and found an insane deal on Salomon S/Max 120s in a 22.5. I am petite, and while was comfortable skiing at 80/90 flex, know that 120 in the same boot would certainly be too stiff. Is it possible to soften a boot down to a 'relative' ~100? If so, is it possible to do so without permanent measures?

I feel i'll eventually end up in jr race boots in a 21.5, but am mostly hoping that this new addition will get me through another season or two of improvement as a stop-gap so I don't have to replace my skis yet.

 

[Jilly]

No, too stiff for a beginner. A racer or expert yes, but not for you.
Softening a boot involves cutting away material. At your small size, that would be doing major surgery on a boot.
Find the right boot. Look at our boot fitter thread and see if there is a recommendation in your area of the world.

 

[flyingsquirrel]

No, too stiff for a beginner. A racer or expert yes, but not for you.
Softening a boot involves cutting away material. At your small size, that would be doing major surgery on a boot.
Find the right boot. Look at our boot fitter thread and see if there is a recommendation in your area of the world.

As I was previously fitted for the same boot and size in a different flex, I was merely curious if adjustments could be made to the higher flex version as they are significantly discounted at the moment, but it seems like the answer is no. Thanks Jilly, as always, appreciate your input!

 

[badger]

agree with Jilly... 120 is way too stiff. My other concern is that you may still be in a boot too big since you were discovering that the BSL won't accommodate to integrated bindings. You would be best to get boots that fit and change out the bindings if that is even possible.

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Don’t worry about a sale. Get fitted correctly. Do a LOT of research on the boot fitter and make sure you don’t feel pressured to buy what they have in stock. Start looking now because the supply chain issues are abound. Good luck. The advice on the site is amazing!

 

[flyingsquirrel]

Ah I love this site so much, but i think this brings me back to my original conundrum :(

I can't continue my current set up without developing bad habits and foot / shin pain, but I can't get new boots without having to scrap my current skis

If I scrap my current skis, then I'd need to demo new skis, but also can't do that easily as I'll likely be in a boot that demo bindings won't accommodate.

And if i get new skis this upcoming season as someone that is still new to skiing, that begs the question of if my preferences for a ski will change once I have another season or two of experience under my belt.

It just doesn't end!

There's definitely a very frustrated side of me that is inclined to listen to the park city bootfitter that suggested I use a 22.5 for a few years as I continue getting better, then look into junior race boots from there. At the same time, there's so much incredible experience and advice on this site that I can't discount either.

Add in a supply chain shortage and my desire to have this settled before the season truly starts since I already have 20+ days planned...SOS!! If anyone has a logical plan of attack here with how I go about this in the most efficient, cost effective way since I can't think of anything -- let a girl know, I'd love you forever

 

[tinymoose]

I would never buy boots on a whim online. Too many variables to get mucked up. That being said 120 anything is a lot, especially for a petite, newer skier.

For a reference, I'm also petite (5'1", 95 lbs), a low advanced skier, and I'm in 70 flex jr. race boots. But I have larger than normal feet and abnormally short shins so I have a hard time generating leverage on the boots. This may not be you, but this is why you need to be fit. To find what works for you.

 

[Mudgirl630]

As I was previously fitted for the same boot and size in a different flex, I was merely curious if adjustments could be made to the higher flex version as they are significantly discounted at the moment, but it seems like the answer is no. Thanks Jilly, as always, appreciate your input!

The answer is a huge NO. Not eve close to where you should be for awhile. How often or how many days do you plan to ski this coming season? Boots are EVERYTHING. If you are not in great fitting boots, you will not get better.

 

[Mudgirl630]

The answer is a huge NO. Not eve close to where you should be for awhile. How often or how many days do you plan to ski this coming season? Boots are EVERYTHING. If you are not in great fitting boots, you will not get better.

Ah I love this site so much, but i think this brings me back to my original conundrum :(

I can't continue my current set up without developing bad habits and foot / shin pain, but I can't get new boots without having to scrap my current skis

If I scrap my current skis, then I'd need to demo new skis, but also can't do that easily as I'll likely be in a boot that demo bindings won't accommodate.

And if i get new skis this upcoming season as someone that is still new to skiing, that begs the question of if my preferences for a ski will change once I have another season or two of experience under my belt.

It just doesn't end!

There's definitely a very frustrated side of me that is inclined to listen to the park city bootfitter that suggested I use a 22.5 for a few years as I continue getting better, then look into junior race boots from there. At the same time, there's so much incredible experience and advice on this site that I can't discount either.

Add in a supply chain shortage and my desire to have this settled before the season truly starts since I already have 20+ days planned...SOS!! If anyone has a logical plan of attack here with how I go about this in the most efficient, cost effective way since I can't think of anything -- let a girl know, I'd love you forever

Do not buy unfamiliar boots online regardless how cheap they are. The new boots out of a box should be really snug as even after a few days, your boots/liners would be packed out a bit that you will feel looser. They will continue to be packed out little by little. For me, after 50 to 60 says skiing, those liners that come with boots/stock liners are done.
Try several boots at the same fitting appointment. You will start to feel the difference. Never also buy after trying 2 boots. Some shops oy have very limited selections. Go to another store and try more. Do not ever settle. Find the pair that fit you the best. After trying many, you will start to get the feel of which one. Remember, they should not be too comfortable, snug without killing your feet too much. They will loosen for sure.

 

[marzNC]

I randomly felt compelled to look at some boot options online today and found an insane deal on Salomon S/Max 120s in a 22.5. I am petite, and while was comfortable skiing at 80/90 flex, know that 120 in the same boot would certainly be too stiff. Is it possible to soften a boot down to a 'relative' ~100? If so, is it possible to do so without permanent measures?

I feel i'll eventually end up in jr race boots in a 21.5, but am mostly hoping that this new addition will get me through another season or two of improvement as a stop-gap so I don't have to replace my skis yet.

Given that you are relatively new to skiing, unlikely that boots not directly recommended by a boot fitter who has seen your feet would work out. There are boot fitters who don't sell boots. They meet with the client and provide specific recommendations. After the client buys the boots, the boot fitter helps to decide which pair to keep and work on to make perfect.

I'm petite. Have become an advanced skier some 15 years after buying the first pair of 4-buckle boots. I'm on my third pair of boots. Knew a lot more by the time I did the second and third boot fitting. I found a good local boot fitter (central NC). The performance boots I tried on when buying these boots weren't going to ever fit because the cuff was too tall. I have custom footbeds (replace in Taos a couple seasons ago) and a replacement heat molded Intuition liner.

That said, I didn't bother with getting all the extra stuff when I was just starting to ski more than 10 days a season as an older intermediate taking a kid for long weekend ski trips.

If I scrap my current skis, then I'd need to demo new skis, but also can't do that easily as I'll likely be in a boot that demo bindings won't accommodate.

And if i get new skis this upcoming season as someone that is still new to skiing, that begs the question of if my preferences for a ski will change once I have another season or two of experience under my belt.

It just doesn't end!

While demo'ing is nice when choosing a new pair of skis, it's really not a requirement. Especially for a relatively new skier. There are plenty of skis that are appropriate and probably not a "perfect" ski model.

Bottom line is that boots are more important than skis.

 

[badger]

I wear a 21 boot. Every demo binding and every fixed binding have always adjusted to the boot BSL. And the BSL on any boot of the same size is NOT always the same. Bindings are not going to be the big issue, your boot fit is going to be the big issue. At your ski level, getting into a boot that is too big---width, length, and volume---will hinder your skill development.

 

[liquidfeet]

- got fitted in park city by an AWESOME fitter than suggested the Salomon S/Max 90 in a 22.5 but waffled as they fit pretty snugly / comfortably out of the box and may still be slightly big but BSLs of most 21.5s would not fit my current ski bindings (they're integrated and it seems like would need to be completely replaced)

I am wondering why this ntegrated binding won't be adjustable to your boots, no matter how short they are. Integrated bindings tend to be adjustable. However, 21.5 is a short boot so there's that. Did your bootfitter tell you that a 21.5 won't work in this particular binding?

If the bootfitter didn't tell you they won't fit, then let's see what's going on here.
--Can you provide a photo of your bindings from the side?
--Also a photo of them from the top would be helpful.
--Also maybe a full photo of the skis you are talking about.

 

[liquidfeet]

Another thing about boot fit, since boot fit determines whether you control your skis or they control you.

The boot needs to match your foot's anatomy in three dimensions, not just length. When it does, your foot's movements, even the tiny little movements, control the ski's movements. You don't want your boots to work like a loose steering wheel. This is why your boots are more important than your skis as far as skill development and control/confidence on the hill.

Did this bootfitter talk to you about not only length, but also volume (height over your instep and how snug it is around your heel/ankle area, and width (boots vary from narrow to wide)?

Different boots are shaped differently in volume and width. So it's not just length that you and your bootfitter need to pay attention to.

 

[scandium]

If what I'm reading is correct, you are in boots that are at least a couple sizes too big. This means you're going to be a bit stuck improvement wise. Skis are secondary to improvement and although it's nice to love your skis as well, you can more easily find good deals on second hand skis that will work for you then trying to cheap out on boots. You can take rental skis and still have a good day, but usually can't take rental boots out and have the same good day.

So the dilemma then becomes: how long would you wait for a 21.5cm boot to arrive, and can the bootfitter actually order it in for you? If they have suggested you need junior race boots for the best fit, you could see if you can go straight to them unless they feel the flex available is too stiff for your current ability. However, if you can't get 21.5cm boots for this season and you will have a decent number of days on snow, the 22.5cm in the correct flex and semi-comfort fit is still better than the too-large boot you have now.

 

[Mudgirl630]

I am wondering why this ntegrated binding won't be adjustable to your boots, no matter how short they are. Integrated bindings tend to be adjustable. However, 21.5 is a short boot so there's that. Did your bootfitter tell you that a 21.5 won't work in this particular binding?

If the bootfitter didn't tell you they won't fit, then let's see what's going on here.
--Can you provide a photo of your bindings from the side?
--Also a photo of them from the top would be helpful.
--Also maybe a full photo of the skis you are talking about.

I was wondering the same.....

 

[Jilly]

Knew there was something I wanted to do at the cottage. Winter storage is up here.

So, my SA 88's have demo bindings on them. They go down to 260. My Rossi's have an integrated plate/binding system they go down to 260. So I would hazard to say that most adult system bindings go down to 260.

 

[VickiK]

It seems like boot sole length is unique to make/model. I think my current Dalbello boot has a different BSL than my previous Dalbello boot, even though they are both 23.5.

 

[racetiger]

This had me curious about how low the integrated bindings go on my Volkl Flairs. They go down to 268.

 

[tinymoose]

I'm surprised integrated bindings don't go lower. My current 23.5 Atomic Redster Jr. boots have a 274 BSL. I think my 22.5 Chakras were maybe 268? And I don't think I have particularly small feet.

 

[liquidfeet]

...Add in a supply chain shortage and my desire to have this settled before the season truly starts since I already have 20+ days planned...SOS!! If anyone has a logical plan of attack here with how I go about this in the most efficient, cost effective way since I can't think of anything -- let a girl know, I'd love you forever

What you need to do, above all else, is buy boots that fit well. They need to fit very "snug" in all dimensions. If you are working with a bootfitter who recommends you stay in a boot that's a bit large for two years, you definitely need to find a new bootfitter. Ask here for a recommendation of a fitter by name who is near where you live. People drive hours to get to a competent, good bootfitter. People should drive hours if no good bootfitter is nearby. It matters.

Once you have boots that really fit, do a seasonal rental for skis. Many ski shops offer seasonal rentals, and they don't cost that much. Get in line the first day the shop opens up for reservations so you can have all their skis to choose from. No, you don't need to demo first. Just choose something similar to the skis you already have and like, or ask here for recommendations of a type of ski to rent.

Why do this? Because in loose boots, even if they are only slightly loose, you will spend 2 years of skiing developing bad technique. You'll do this because those boots will make your skis not hold well. They will not take you exactly where you intended to go with each turn. The compensatory movements you'll need to employ try to control the skis will become deeply embedded bad habits. They will be very hard to replace in the years afterwards. You'll need lots of consistent good instruction ($$$) to replace those bad habits during years 3 and 4. This is the pretty predictable long-term consequence of significant time spent skiing in boots that are a bit too large. I did this. I know.

You may end up living with those bad habits for the rest of your ski life. Many people get stuck skiing with bad habits because so they don't understand boot fit and its importance and continue to buy boots that don't fit. Your current bootfitter doesn't understand this importance. Go see someone else.

So here's a "logical plan."

1. If you choose to get a new bootfitter, start a thread with a title something like this: "Looking for good bootfitter near _____________ (where you live)."

2. You could also start another thread titled "How will I know my bootfitter is a good one?" People here have had a lot of experience with bad and good bootfitters. They can tell you stories that will help you figure this out.

3. If you choose to rent skis, and are uncertain about what kind of skis to rent, start another thread titled something like: "What type of skis do I need to replace [your current skis]?" You will be looking for a type of ski as well as specific model names. People here will be able to give you both.

Diva members are eager to help. Good luck.