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Vail: How it's changed skiing and where it might be going.

newboots

Angel Diva
As much as I dislike Vail, I do agree, @NewEnglandSkier . There is a lot of pent-up demand.

They could, of course, limit sales (Heaven forbid!).
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
Drove home from Tahoe today after 5 days amazing skiing. The cars lined up about 6 miles (opposite direction where I was going) to get into Palisades. Not EPIC resort BTW. IKON. I imagine those poor souls in Truckee waited hours. This was at 11 am.

We have friends who made and pass out anti-IKON stickers and gear at Alta. Reading this makes me realize just how much worse it could be. I'm so sad/angry for all those dealing with VR's unconscionable actions at their home resorts.
 

ilovepugs

Angel Diva
They could, of course, limit sales (Heaven forbid!).
Mad River Glen stopped selling season passes last spring lol. I had a long lunch on Thursday and saw 4 other people (other than ski patrollers) on the slope. Heheh.

I wonder what it would take to return to rationality at VR. I’d love to go back to Stowe for a season sometime but can’t bring myself to deal with the crowds. Fwiw yesterday at Sugarbush the longest line I waited in was all of 5 minutes.
 

Abbi

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Regarding the photos above of liftlines and traffic backups----how much do you think is really attributable to the Epic Pass sales being really high this past year or how much is due to the storm that came through New England? I didn't pay any attention whether VT got any snow out of it, but here in eastern MA it was pretty common to see 6-12 inches---so we know that people see snow in their back yards and automatically head north to ski . . . . .I mean I saw something on another forum about Killington being packed as well--and they are associated with Ikon.
Same with Tahoe---didn't they just get a ton of snow? Which will cause everyone in California to head there--whether they have a pass or not?
I have lived on the road in that picture for eight years. I’ve seen a lot of traffic. But I have never seen a back up into the next, almost, town! We’ve had other times where there were storms south and people flocked north. But not in these numbers. If you follow the Instagram account I mentioned that is everywhere that has epic.
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Regarding the photos above of liftlines and traffic backups----how much do you think is really attributable to the Epic Pass sales being really high this past year or how much is due to the storm that came through New England? I didn't pay any attention whether VT got any snow out of it, but here in eastern MA it was pretty common to see 6-12 inches---so we know that people see snow in their back yards and automatically head north to ski . . . . .I mean I saw something on another forum about Killington being packed as well--and they are associated with Ikon.
Same with Tahoe---didn't they just get a ton of snow? Which will cause everyone in California to head there--whether they have a pass or not?
Not New England, but prior to Vail purchasing Jack Frost, we'd get discount tickets to ski there a few times a year (on top of our Montage passes), and I've never seen or heard of traffic backing up the entire length of the access road and out onto 940. Maybe the few inches they got played a small role, but I can't imagine it's the main cause.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Regarding the photos above of liftlines and traffic backups----how much do you think is really attributable to the Epic Pass sales being really high this past year or how much is due to the storm that came through New England?
Good point. Lack of snow or big snowstorms are always a key factor for any region. Holiday periods are typically when locals stay away, but a big snowstorm after low snow conditions might change the situation.

I've heard from more than one source that a fair number of the Epic "pass" sales for 2021-22 were for an Epic Day Pass. That's only good for 1-7 days. Presumably people who buy one can't add to crowded conditions too often. Although people who planned a holiday trip for 4-5 days of skiing in Dec using an Epic Day Pass were in pretty long lines wherever they went. There is a premium price to get an Epic Day Pass that is good during holiday periods. Just as there is an added price to get a Full Epic pass with no blackout dates.

Would be interesting to have some idea of the breakdown of the different types of Epic passes. Ikon too. Both of these multi-resort passes include a few resorts that also sell 1-location season passes. Epic has regional passes too (Tahoe, Northeast).
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Not New England, but prior to Vail purchasing Jack Frost, we'd get discount tickets to ski there a few times a year (on top of our Montage passes), and I've never seen or heard of traffic backing up the entire length of the access road and out onto 940. Maybe the few inches they got played a small role, but I can't imagine it's the main cause.
Hmm . . . wonder if a lot more people who are local to the Pononos discovered that the northeast Epic pass exists and decided to get it for 2021-22 because of the pandemic. Did seem pretty clear last season there were people who either decided to avoid flying or discovered that there is fun to be had at small mountains in the mid-Atlantic.

No Epic locations in the southeast. Only a few Indy locations. Overall, last season was a good one for all the ski areas/resorts in that region. Combination of many days of snowmaking weather and pent up demand from people who stayed closer to home for outdoor recreation all winter.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
We have friends who made and pass out anti-IKON stickers and gear at Alta. Reading this makes me realize just how much worse it could be. I'm so sad/angry for all those dealing with VR's unconscionable actions at their home resorts.
The first year (or second?) that Ikon existed was a good snow year for LCC/BCC and Jackson Hole. Few of the unhappy locals wanted to hear that the number of visits by season passholders was up substantially while the percentage of people using Ikon wasn't that big.

Haven't heard much about numbers or percentages for Alta or Snowbird or JH using Ikon lately. But with the pandemic, not sure recent numbers would mean much.

In the meantime, the population of SLC has continued to grow.
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hmm . . . wonder if a lot more people who are local to the Pononos discovered that the northeast Epic pass exists and decided to get it for 2021-22 because of the pandemic. Did seem pretty clear last season there were people who either decided to avoid flying or discovered that there is fun to be had at small mountains in the mid-Atlantic.

No Epic locations in the southeast. Only a few Indy locations. Overall, last season was a good one for all the ski areas/resorts in that region. Combination of many days of snowmaking weather and pent up demand from people who stayed closer to home for outdoor recreation all winter.
I do think the pandemic has played some role. Even Montage has been far busier the last two seasons. Used to be you hardly ever had a lift line of more than a few people down on the North Face Phoebe lift. Last two years it backs up sometimes to the bottom of the run out from Cannonball. Line on the Boomer and White Lightning side is always shorter because more difficult terrain. Yesterday it was taking about 20 minutes to do a full lap down on the North Face/Phoebe lift.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I do think the pandemic has played some role. Even Montage has been far busier the last two seasons. Used to be you hardly ever had a lift line of more than a few people down on the North Face Phoebe lift. Last two years it backs up sometimes to the bottom of the run out from Cannonball. Boomer and White Lightning side is always shorter because more difficult terrain. Yesterday it was taking about 20 minutes to do a full lap down on the North Face/Phoebe lift.
Plus the current ownership and management of Montage have done a good job of operating the place in recent years. Takes a while, but I would guess the reputation of Montage is quite different now than shortly after the "Snö" period ended in 2012. :smile:
 

ilovepugs

Angel Diva
Just wondering. With all of the dissatisfaction over Epic, do you think there will be a mass exodus to IKON? I’m very curious to know what Alterra thinks will happen and how they’re planning to respond.

I know that some IKON resorts have had their share of issues (looking at you, Crystal) but I can’t imagine they will want to have the same deterioration in quality and overcrowding that Epic has had this year, especially at IKON’s partner resorts. That would definitely run the risk of causing the partners to drop the partnership ASAP.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Just wondering. With all of the dissatisfaction over Epic, do you think there will be a mass exodus to IKON? I’m very curious to know what Alterra thinks will happen and how they’re planning to respond.

I know that some IKON resorts have had their share of issues (looking at you, Crystal) but I can’t imagine they will want to have the same deterioration in quality and overcrowding that Epic has had this year, especially at IKON’s partner resorts. That would definitely run the risk of causing the partners to drop the partnership ASAP.
A big difference between the business model between Alterra and VR is that the destination resorts owned by Alterra run operations pretty much separately. More like what Powdr does. Killington doesn't have to do the same as Snowbird or Bachelor.

Crystal was bought be Alterra in 2018. Given the issues there related to parking and the population growth of the major urban market, wasn't much time to make major adjustments before 2020.

Have you heard of issues at Sugarbush that are unrelated to the general issues with staffing caused by the ongoing pandemic? That purchase was in January 2020. So too soon to tease out what's Alterra management decisions and what's pandemic consequences.

The About Sugarbush webpage covers the entire history of ownership, up through the purchase by Alterra. You won't find info like that for Epic ski resorts. A bit of an indication that history isn't valued that highly by VR.
 

NewEnglandSkier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Just wondering. With all of the dissatisfaction over Epic, do you think there will be a mass exodus to IKON?
I've been wondering the same thing. I can imagine a certain percentage of people may be "forced" to stick with Epic if they own ski in/out homes and condos at one of their resorts and want to continue to use that amenity (one could of course argue that they sell the property and buy elsewhere--and while some may choose to do so, that may not be feasible for everyone/not something that would be undertaken lightly). I'd imagine that the percentage of people that will be "forced" into sticking with Epic due to lodging is rather small in the grand scheme of things though---so yeah, I can't help but wonder if everything that isn't Epic will end up even more crowded next season.
Will be interesting to see what happens.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
I've been wondering the same thing. I can imagine a certain percentage of people may be "forced" to stick with Epic if they own ski in/out homes and condos at one of their resorts and want to continue to use that amenity (one could of course argue that they sell the property and buy elsewhere--and while some may choose to do so, that may not be feasible for everyone/not something that would be undertaken lightly). I'd imagine that the percentage of people that will be "forced" into sticking with Epic due to lodging is rather small in the grand scheme of things though---so yeah, I can't help but wonder if everything that isn't Epic will end up even more crowded next season.
Will be interesting to see what happens.

That's sort of my dilemma. I live less than 10 minutes from Okemo, so of COURSE I'm going to get the Epic pass, even though I'm not happy with the way things are going. That said, I've made sure I have other options, too, which I'll continue into next season. That includes the IKON Base pass, which allows me to ski at Sugarbush and Stratton (unlimited) -- both a bit of a drive, but not too bad -- as well as 5 days at Killington. And I have a midweek pass at Bromley, a smaller independent resort about 40 minutes away. So maybe other people will do the same thing.
 

ilovepugs

Angel Diva
That's sort of my dilemma. I live less than 10 minutes from Okemo, so of COURSE I'm going to get the Epic pass, even though I'm not happy with the way things are going. That said, I've made sure I have other options, too, which I'll continue into next season. That includes the IKON Base pass, which allows me to ski at Sugarbush and Stratton (unlimited) -- both a bit of a drive, but not too bad -- as well as 5 days at Killington. And I have a midweek pass at Bromley, a smaller independent resort about 40 minutes away. So maybe other people will do the same thing.
For people like us, who willingly devote a substantial portion of our discretionary spending to snow sports, that definitely seems like the way to go. Assuming budget allows, I think my go-forward plan will always be to maintain a pass at Mad River Glen and a multi-resort pass. But, I wonder how generalizable that is to the many thousands of skiers and riders who are more cost or value conscious.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
Yes I would expect here in WA for more people to get Ikon next year. But of course, Crystal can only handle so much...but at least they are trying to handle it. Last year, lift reservations, this year, parking reservations or free shuttle. Baker and Snoqualmie will likely see more customers too, though Baker limits pass sales.
 

santacruz skier

Angel Diva
Then there's some of us who live 5 hours from the closest ski resort.... also I have accommodations at both Northstar and Heavenly. These resorts have always been crowded as are most of the resorts in Tahoe. Bay area skiers infiltrate the Tahoe resorts. The walk up price used to be a lot cheaper and season passes were over $1,000. Even Homewood (small resort) is $100 now to ski.
Driving home from Tahoe on Saturday cars were lined up from Palisades Tahoe to Truckee (about 7 miles) bumper to bumper.
If I lived closer, I would probably ski Sugar Bowl.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
Do Stevens skiers have a legal case?


STEVENS PASS — Stevens Pass skiers and snowboarders, frustrated by limited operations on the mountain this winter, might have a case against the ski conglomerate that owns the resort, consumer protection advocates say.

Customers paid Vail Resorts roughly $500 to $1,000 each for season passes to the Washington resort and other ski areas owned by the company. But when the season began last month at Stevens Pass, patrons were shocked to find long lift lines, scarce parking and about half of the trails, lift and terrain still closed.

Among the displeased skiers is Dan Johnson, a Seattle-based consumer protection attorney. He said season pass holders have “a pretty good start” for a valid claim that the company violated Washington’s Consumer Protection Act, given the pass prices and the amount of acreage still closed.

Before filing any sort of lawsuit, though, unhappy customers will have to revisit the fine print on Vail Resorts' Epic Pass.

The pass "terms and conditions" agreement, published online, says customers cannot sue the seller over any claims that scaled-back operations prevented them from fully using their pass at Stevens Pass or the dozens of other ski areas owned by the Colorado-based company.

One provision of the agreement explicitly bars class action lawsuits and states that customers must resolve any disputes with the company “on an individual basis.”

But that waiver might not hold up in court, Johnson said.

“It’s questionable whether that class action waiver is enforceable under current law,” he said.

Johnson, along with other attorneys who spoke to The Herald, did not formally review the circumstances, but weighed in on potential legal arguments Epic Pass holders might make.

The company has denied claims of deceptive business practices.

“Unfortunately, ski passes are filled with caveats.” Jack Gillis, executive director and CEO of the non-profit Consumer Federation of America, said in an email. “There’s a lot in the fine print that most of us don’t read, but that absolves the operators of liability for both performance (availability of the facility) and safety.”

Sumeer Singla, an attorney who has represented governments and individuals in civil litigation, agreed there could be a strong argument the company violated state law.

“That would give you, so to speak, a lot more arrows in your quiver to be able to knock down some of the provisions that Vail would put up in their defense,” said Singla, of the Seattle-based firm Williams Kastner. “Washington state’s Consumer Protection Act is pretty broad in the sense that it applies to a lot of different deceptive acts and practices.”

Another provision of the purchase agreement says all lawsuits arising out of the terms must be filed in federal or state courts in Colorado. But Singla and Johnson questioned whether a judge would uphold that limitation.

“There is a pathway here, it would just be a little difficult,” Singla said.

The company maintains its practices are legal.

“Vail Resorts complies with all laws related to the marketing and sale of our passes, including by providing consumers with clear pass terms and FAQs on our website,” Roston said.

Without a class action, individual lawsuits against the company likely wouldn’t achieve financial relief for all season pass holders; however, a judge could grant a special injunction in such a case, ordering the company to compensate customers, said attorney Christina Henry, who practices consumer litigation in Seattle.

Given the “significant hurdles” posed by the extensive terms, she suggested that customers might have a better chance getting their money back by filing a complaint with the state Attorney General’s Office.

“There are issues here as to how things are interpreted,” Henry said of the purchase agreement. “It’s not clear cut to me.”

As of noon on Friday, more than 50 complaints had been filed with the Attorney General Bob Ferguson’s office against Stevens Pass and its ownership.

Other avenues

Some critics of Vail Resorts have questioned whether the federal government could revoke the company’s permission to operate the Stevens Pass ski area on public lands.

The company has a “special use permit” from the U.S. Forest Service to occupy its site in the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie and Okanogan-Wenatchee national forests.

It’s in compliance with all of the permit’s conditions, said Colton Whitworth, a Forest Service public affairs officer.

“The permit includes terms and conditions for operation and references Stevens Pass Ski Resort’s Operating Plan,” Whitworth said in an email. “The operating plan identifies standard operating procedures for opening ski terrain, managing lifts, and general operations. It does not mandate the opening of ski terrain or ski lifts when there is insufficient staff to do so.”

“Additionally, the Steven’s Pass Ski Area Permit also requires compliance with state and local laws and regulations,” he added. “If the State of Washington determines a law has been violated, we will address the matter at that time.”
 

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ilovepugs

Angel Diva
“Additionally, the Steven’s Pass Ski Area Permit also requires compliance with state and local laws and regulations,” he added. “If the State of Washington determines a law has been violated, we will address the matter at that time.”
I think this paragraph is key as far as the risk to Vail goes. Bringing a Washington state law claim will be costly and time consuming for consumers, but if the consumer affairs regulator finds evidence of non-compliance that could certainly jeopardize their permit.
 

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