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Vail: How it's changed skiing and where it might be going.

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
I subscribe to the Storm Skiing Journal because of its excellent, thorough articles, and they just released pretty long one about Vail, how it got to where it is today, and the effect it's had on the skiing world. Very interesting reading. You can find it here.

I'd love to hear your reactions when you're done. There's a lot I disagree with, and I'm wondering if you feel the same way.
 
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Christy

Angel Diva
The author acknowledges some of the issues, though it's clear he comes down on the side of, this is good for skiers and skiing.

He mentions Stevens Pass and 2 other resorts not being fully open Xmas eve. Stevens, the only VR in WA, and Stevens alone is grossly understaffed and only 40% open, when the other WA ski areas are 100% open. Where's the incentive for VR to care? They got their money when people bought passes. Someone with a pass may not be able to afford to just go someplace else. The fact that he didn't address this issue is quite an omission.

This got the biggest eye roll from me:
Vail has done the sport – and its investors – a tremendous service by driving this shift. Imitators – Ikon, Indy, Mountain Collective – abound. Good. The more people who feel a part of this thing, who have license to go as often as they want and travel widely, the more stable its future will be even as the climate shows less inclination to cooperate with our seasonal calendar.

These passes are bad for the climate. Travel, especially air travel, is bad for the climate. I would have liked to see THAT acknowledged, rather than the author looking at this through the lens of, with more passholding skiers being more invested in the sport, the sport will be more likely to survive (presumably when VR starts building resorts in the Yukon or something?).
 

Christy

Angel Diva
Actually it's almost 6000 in less than a day. Things sound like such a mess there! There aren't staff to plow parking lots, groom, open the second lodge or run lifts.

Like the petition says, if you are only going to operate 40% of terrain due to your failure to adequately staff--and again, the other ski areas here managed to find staff to fully open terrain and run lifts--then you do need to refund 60% of the pass price.

It should be easier for Stevens to find staff as they are on a mountain pass highway, meaning, they can draw from 2 sides of the Cascades (unlike Baker or Crystal, which are on dead end roads an hour from the nearest town). It's hard to believe they can't find labor in Wenatchee, which is an agricultural center where many of the jobs are seasonal. Does VR not pay better than apple picking?

From the petition. WA has a terrific attorney general and I am curious as to what he would say about this.

This is simply a matter of not hiring the appropriate staff to run a ski area, or pay a wage commensurate with experience and the job description. Mt. Baker, Snoqualimie, Alpental, Crystal, White Pass and Mission Ridge do not appear to have this problem whatsoever. There is a clear pattern of overselling passes and failing to provide the most rudimentary services to uphold Vail Resort's end of the deal with consumers.

The product marketed and sold by Vail Resorts included reasonable access to the terrain and lifts that are prevalent in their marketing materials and on their maps. We were not sold passes with the understanding that Vail Resorts intended to keep 60% of the terrain and the majority of lifts closed for the season. We would not have bought passes if we knew this. It is illegal for a business to accept payments for products or services they do not intend to supply. Vail Resorts needs to commit to returning 60% of the cost of a season's pass to all pass holders unless this problem is addressed immediately (by January 15th). There is ample evidence that Vail Resorts was aware of their staffing issues as early as the 2019/2020 winter. To sell this many "Epic Passes" in Washington State while being fully aware of staffing issues and knowing that they could not meet their obligations to all of their consumers, it is clear that Vail Resorts deceived a substantial portion of the public and committed this deception in the conduct of commerce. We believe that Vail Resorts' failure to comply with our request is a violation of the Washington Consumer Protection Act. Without action from Vail Resorts, the undersigned will bring a claim of violation to the Consumer Protection Division and the Attorney General of Washington State.


Just since I wrote this, the petition flew by the 6k mark.
 
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MissySki

Angel Diva
Wow, Wildcat should do this as well!! I’m not even sure if they’ve gotten their summit open still?? Whereas everyone around them is going as hard as they can making snow and have had MUCH more open for weeks now. I feel so bad for the folks who are having their home mountains ruined like this. It’s terrifying to the rest of as well as we watch Vail gobble everyone up.
 

echo_VT

Angel Diva
I do agree it’s one sided. There is way too much focused on the business side without acknowledging the environmental impact or the culture impact.

There are positives I thought. They talked about DEI and the measures that are being done by the non profit foundation (is it non profit?)… I’d like to see more here though other than a statement of commitment. More action and reporting of how it went. Also how it’s going and revisiting past actions impact.

there’s a lot with regard to labor that is completely untouched. The shortages aren’t Vail alone. It’s definitely global and the pandemic and the great resignation are part of it. But what exacerbations are there? They mildly touched on the housing crisis and traffic crises. The traffic is also not just mountain towns … the pandemic has changed the way we travel, live and work and it’s definitely leaving it’s mark on the ski/snow industry.

Vail is also taking measures to be zero carbon emissions in some aggressive number of years… it seems like their own initiative of protect our winters (POW) but none of that is discussed or elaborated on. How does that contribute to the bottom line (making pass holders feel good about being part of that ?) what are the competitors doing? Is there competition other than pass sales? What are they and where do they all stand?

So in hindsight, vail destroyed liftopia. Remember that was a thing? Onthesnow.com was my go to as was a Tahoe based newsletter etc. It’s great to see the ski industry not dying but it’s hard not to wonder what comes next. It feels like shaky ground. What are we giving up so the sport doesn’t die?

there were inefficiencies in the industry and they (vail) definitely used data to help them capture them. There is probably more still to be seen id imagine.

the article is one sided though with not a lot explored other than pass sales and acquisitions and the partner model for Ikon etc. I’d like to hear more about what has been done and how it’s fared.
 

ling

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Could have been written by Vail's marketing department.

One thing the article didn't give Vail credit on: increase the day ticket price to almost 1/2 of a season pass price!

That makes it a no-brainer to buy season pass, which needs to be done in advance.

It's important. No matter how bad the weather, the money is already in the bank, in Vail's account that is. Even if there's no snow till Valentine's Day, the money is safe.

To be fair, from a business standpoint, it's the right move. "A bird in hand is worth more than 2 in the forest"! Why the article didn't mention such a key element of Rob Katz's strategy is a little surprising. But perhaps it wasn't included in the bullet point the author got from Vail's PR person?
 
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Christy

Angel Diva
I sense there is some gloating by other local ski areas that are not owned by VR. Emphasis on all facilities open.

20211229_201638.jpg


20211229_201617.jpg

I thought people were exaggerating a little when they said there is no grooming on trails or plowing of parking lots at Stevens, but I heard today that is literally the case. Not even grooming of the flat cat tracks with lots of new snow. Parking lots are a crazy snowy free for all.
 

ddskis

Certified Ski Diva
No exaggeration. And the parking lot mess is spilling into hwy 2. Also the road up this year has been the worst I’ve seen skiing there 46yrs which is another story. I’m going to have to start taking anxiolytics to tolerate the drive. I’m making hubs let me know everyday that he’s arrived to mtn safely. Getting back home is a whole other thing. Been biting my tongue on this whole SP debacle and holding back on saying anything due to hubs employee status but this is just unbelievable levels of messed up. Enjoying watching the signature count increase on the change.org petition but also
 

ddskis

Certified Ski Diva
And thx for that link ski diva. Gonna have to read the article in chunks as my BP is rising and I have SO.MANY.THOUGHTS. Grrrrrrrrr
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
there’s a lot with regard to labor that is completely untouched. The shortages aren’t Vail alone. It’s definitely global and the pandemic and the great resignation are part of it. But what exacerbations are there? They mildly touched on the housing crisis and traffic crises. The traffic is also not just mountain towns … the pandemic has changed the way we travel, live and work and it’s definitely leaving it’s mark on the ski/snow industry.

Great points. At Sunapee yesterday, the crowds were big and the lodge lines were insane, even by holiday standards. There was a counter that had grab-and-go snacks on one side and bar service on the other (with a big black curtain dividing them for some reason). There was ONE poor man staffing both lines all day, for $13/hr, in a huge open lodge full of both vaccinated and unvaccinated people not wearing masks. The Waffle Cabin line looked to be about a 30 min. wait; I didn't see how many people were working in there.

There's a housing shortage in this whole region, and entry level jobs are thick on the ground at $17/hr. Within VR, the food service departments seem to be the hardest-hit. Instructors and patrollers will come for the work, but there are plenty of other, better opportunities in food service/restaurant work.

I don't know why Vail doesn't just allow some resorts to outsource food service. It drove me crazy this summer watching them try to get a "beer garden" atmosphere going at the bike park.

The place had all the ingredients for a win-win situation: customers could sit at picnic tables and watch the mountain bikers, or play cornhole or mini-golf. There were lawn games for kids and plenty of space for them to run and play. There's a whole little wooden "skills park" where kids can ride their bikes. There's a first-class and very beautiful disc golf course, nice little hiking trails, and the resort is in an area where tons of people come to recreate in the summer. The place should have been packed, bringing in revenue and serving as a sort of visibility-based feeder program for the bike park.

And yet, the resort was shackled to the low-tier food and bev options that Vail allows them. The result was an expensive, limited, and terrible food selection, and an absolutely garbage beer list. There was no reason for customers to hang around. No music, live or otherwise, and nothing edible was at all interesting or worth the expense. Soooooo close, but just no vibe. And not for lack of trying on the part of some great people who were trying their best.

One or two food trucks and some acoustic music would have made that place hop, but it won't happen because VR won't let it. It's such a wasted opportunity.

Anyway, the bottom line for VRs eastern resorts is that the hourly wage V is offering is far below the regional average.

The other bottom line is the focus on shareholders rather than employees and customers. I'm not sure that many Americans understand how recent a trend this is and how it impacts not just the economy, but the culture; our understanding of work and its value, the way we view businesses and their obligations (or lack thereof) to society....ah, that's a rant for another time and place. But Vail is an exemplar of the nation in this regard.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
Not to diminish anything you've said, @SallyCat , because I agree, but I thought that Vail had moved its hourly wage to $15. an hour.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Not to diminish anything you've said, @SallyCat , because I agree, but I thought that Vail had moved its hourly wage to $15. an hour.
They raised to $15 at their western resorts, but not in the east. (At least that's the info I was given when I was considering a ski patrol position this November: $13/hr).

I did a quick check and notice that for entry-level positions, Vail does not list the starting wage on its employment site or on Indeed. If I hear different, I'll definitely update as it would be notable if they came up on wages nationwide.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
And they really can't use that labor shortage argument here, since all of the other ski areas are making it work. There is zero reason they can't have all terrain open, lots plowed, some runs groomed, etc, if Crystal, Baker, Mission Ridge and White Pass are managing to do these things.

Did they make the pass too cheap? I agree we can point to corporate greed and the emphasis on shareholder returns as possible reasons they won't shell out for higher wages and more employees. But since they are going to emphasize these things, maybe to also provide a basic level of customer service they need to charge more for passes.

Looking at VR shareholders and other info, it's so hard to believe anyone there would give a rat's a** about anything related to actually running a ski resort. Check out the top 10 shareholders.

 

Christy

Angel Diva
My poor husband. He has an Epic local pass and just wants to ski. I convinced him to forget about Stevens, forget he has a pass, and shell out holiday prices for somewhere else. Hmm, Crystal, our former home mountain, is $186 tomorrow if you don't have Ikon. Nope! Snoqualmie is $116. Fine. But it's been stormy, they were without power Tuesday, lost it again today, and I-90 is closed, again. Maybe they'll dig out and power up tomorrow...Maybe...

20211230_082121.jpg
 

Jenny

Angel Diva
Nice quote

Not everyone was happy. “Throughout the history of (Vail) we have appealed to exclusivity,” Kaye Ferry, then-executive director of the Vail Chamber and Business Association, told the Colorado Independent shortly after the pass’ launch. “The only people we let up there during Christmas are the ones with the big homes and their ski instructors. We had eliminated the Front Range riff-raff, and all of a sudden we’re selling a pass that’s to the masses.”
 

Christy

Angel Diva
Nice quote

Not everyone was happy. “Throughout the history of (Vail) we have appealed to exclusivity,” Kaye Ferry, then-executive director of the Vail Chamber and Business Association, told the Colorado Independent shortly after the pass’ launch. “The only people we let up there during Christmas are the ones with the big homes and their ski instructors. We had eliminated the Front Range riff-raff, and all of a sudden we’re selling a pass that’s to the masses.”

I personally don't think that's an accurate characterization of skiing pre and post the Epic Pass, unless they are speaking exclusively of Vail, which I can't speak to.

I think skiing is more exclusive than ever, since cheap daily lift tickets are largely a thing of the past, thanks in large part to VR.
 

teleskichica

Certified Ski Diva
$15 in the Pacific Northwest is not tenable when there is no housing. Crystal has housing; I'm not entirely sure about Baker. But Baker and especially White Pass are the types of ski hills that are more often staffed by year-round locals to the area especially because these skill hills don't have resort specific housing either. A good portion of staff for White Pass live in the RV lot without electricity or running water. Others live in nearby campgrounds with limited hookups. This year, RV lot staff pay about $5 a day for access to showers/laundry at a nearby facility. The drive to any of these locations besides Snoqualmie Pass is one lane each direction sometimes two lanes for passing or curves for a minimum of 30-45 minutes from the nearest location with potential housing. Even then, housing is mostly designated for AirBnb or VRBO. Cities like Wenatchee, Enumclaw, Yakima, Everett, Bellingham, etc., are at least an hour away. I'd venture to say it is fairly unreasonable to expect that someone making $15 an hour can afford to commute daily let alone commute safely. And the allure of a free ski pass is negligible when one can't reasonably use it. Even White Pass suffers a bout of lifty loss each season when they finally get fed up slinging chairs 5-6 days a week and only one lunch run.

Also, hi! I'm new here. I've been loving all the ski gear reviews -- THANK YOU for helping me purchase my first new skis in over a decade now that my young adults have left the nest -- and super stoked to find a crew of lady shredders. YAY!
 

Iwannaski

Angel Diva
@sallycat…this really nails it:
The other bottom line is the focus on shareholders rather than employees and customers. I'm not sure that many Americans understand how recent a trend this is and how it impacts not just the economy, but the culture; our understanding of work and its value, the way we view businesses and their obligations (or lack thereof) to society....ah, that's a rant for another time and place.

FWIW, when I was in business school, we had a mandatory business ethics course, and our professor was considered a rebel because his whole field of study is stakeholder, rather than shareholder, theory. The idea that the SYSTEM has to be considered, not just financial interest.

When you look at any of our systems through that lens, it’s really horrifying to see how much our society has been broken. :(

That being said, while I thought the article overall was definitely a bit puffy, the outdated pearl clutching out of the Vail chamber of commerce from back in the day did make me giggle.

But, if I look at the stakeholders impacted by the Epic business model, I see major issues that are known and not addressed. Also, forgive me for being cynical, but people moving their assets to a not-for-profit foundation is a known tax dodge and can often still benefit the original asset holder. So, the glorification of the foundation transfer isn’t really doing it for me. And it was just his stock gains, not his pay. He’s not hurting at all.
 

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