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Icy Black Tips?

ThatJessGirl

Certified Ski Diva
Today I had a 4 level group lesson with someone who was a 2. The instructor afterwards pulled me aside and asked if I ever skied blacks. I hadn’t. He took just me to a black run in the trees. For whatever reason I LOVE tree runs. It’s just my jam and there’s always powder. It was simply glorious. He said to hop in to a lesson later in the day at a 5 level (wow, I’m shocked). We went down a wide open black run around 2-3pm with a LOT of ice. When I say I froze in the middle of the run for 5-10 minutes psyching myself out on the grade and ice, I’m not joking. I made it down without falling but the instructor actually apologized for pushing me beyond my emotional limit of what I’m comfortable with, not ability level he said. It’s completely accurate. I’m such a complete pansy on ice. Add to that that it was my first day doing blacks and my fuse was blown.

Ladies what are your tips for steep wide open exposed blacks with ice? I know about sharpened edges but man, ANY tips would help. I at one point felt like a complete basket case as if I forgot how to ski. Thanks so much in advance!
 

Emski528

Angel Diva
I stopped listening to the noise. That scrapping sound from my skis and from people around me used to really scare me. It sounds so silly but the psychological part for me was always the noise. Now I ignore the noise, loosen up a bit bc you can’t fight the slide, and focus on my next best snowy spot for a turn. Sometimes that spot is far away but you gotta just go with it. I’m sure someone else has some good actual skill tips. Congrats on upping the skills level today! Even with the panic, you still pushed yourself and that’s a big win to me. Trees are my favorite, too.
 

ThatJessGirl

Certified Ski Diva
I stopped listening to the noise. That scrapping sound from my skis and from people around me used to really scare me. It sounds so silly but the psychological part for me was always the noise. Now I ignore the noise, loosen up a bit bc you can’t fight the slide, and focus on my next best snowy spot for a turn. Sometimes that spot is far away but you gotta just go with it. I’m sure someone else has some good actual skill tips. Congrats on upping the skills level today! Even with the panic, you still pushed yourself and that’s a big win to me. Trees are my favorite, too.
I’m the exact SAME on the noise. It’s like nails on a chalk board and I lose it. We were working what I can only describe as like box carving drills with hockey slide stops/turns on the grade: traverse across, down, hockey turn/stop, traverse across. I just couldn’t with 3/4 of the path being ice. I found a little pocket of powder and was able to descend down and turn to go across again. It wasn’t a fun descent by any means- nothing like pow in the trees where you just loosey goosey down like a knife through butter and everything works and holds. I think I need to focus on the next 15-20 feet and not the whole mountain. Like ignore everything else and how far up I am and just try to accomplish that little bit and keep going.
 

Mistletoes

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Interested in the replies too. I don't have any advice to offer but can share that I lose my nerve on wide open blacks and even some blues but seem to do just fine on narrower blacks with run outs and lots of turns. When I see the whole run laid out in front of me, it becomes overwhelming but when I just have to get over this one dip and around a corner, then I'm in it and don't have time to think about it.
 

newbieM

Angel Diva
I can’t speak for blacks but I can totally speak for when I freak out in my head my skiing form goes out the window. When I tackle terrain that feels scary I go into tunnel vision. I focus on one small turn or section at a time, if I need to stop, take a deep breath and keep going. It doesn’t have to be pretty, you can run it again next time and make it nicer. Celebrate your win through the trees! I really like jumping to the next challenge with a lesson it gives me the confidence and then I can work on my own on really cementing it in.
 

Jenny

Angel Diva
Interested in the replies too. I don't have any advice to offer but can share that I lose my nerve on wide open blacks and even some blues but seem to do just fine on narrower blacks with run outs and lots of turns. When I see the whole run laid out in front of me, it becomes overwhelming but when I just have to get over this one dip and around a corner, then I'm in it and don't have time to think about it.
Funny, I’m the opposite. I like to see the run, so I know there isn’t anything unexpected around the corner!
 

shadoj

Angel Diva
I too hate that scraping noise that seems an inevitable part of first turns on icy steeps!

Mental:
- Give myself a pep talk. Be confident / trust my skills and equipment.

Route planning:
- Focus on one section of the hill, even if I have to mentally divide it into sub-runs (left/right/center). Check things out at the top. Is one route steeper/icier/wonkier? Did one side get OK snow pushed out to it from the icy center? Did one side stay in the shade and escape the freeze-thaw cycles?
- 3 turns at a time. Know run-out/shallow, visible stop points.

Skills/tips:
- Relaxed ankles. Let the knees drop towards the tips of your skis by letting the ankles bend.
- Hands forward, torso (including pelvis!) facing down the fall line. Rotate legs at the hips.
- Uphill ski can have slight tip lead. This helps keep pelvis rotated down the hill and makes turn initiation easier. Press uphil ski knee into the hill by opening up the groin.
- Turns are easier when I'm already moving. C-shaped turns!
- Be patient and wait for my edges to catch in the turn. Use the energy from riding them across the fall line to help with the next turn.
- It's OK to sideslip/pivot slip.
- Don't look down at my skis. They'll be pointing wherever I point my toes, as long as the DINs are correct ;)

Congrats on everyone tackling the scary stuff. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot here.
 

BackCountryGirl

Angel Diva
I'll weigh in with some ideas. Yes, sharp edges matter, but one can't be abrupt using them. Everything on ice should be patient and progressive. Think about this image. If I throw a rubber ball on concrete with force, it bounces back with force. If I drop it gently, it doesn't bounce too high. You want your skis to stay connected to the snow, you don't want them to chatter, and you want to get to the high edge angle in the fall line patiently.

Another must is to move your core toward the new inside ski/downhill ski to release from the old turn. Whether you're guiding the slide with somewhat flat skis or using an edged ski, you need to move down the fall line. Not by leaning or throwing your hip inside, but by extending off the old inside ski to the new one.

Pivot slips, talked about in another thread, are good to do to practice that move. And they're a great tactic to have in your arsenal for firm or icy and steep terrain.
 

ThatJessGirl

Certified Ski Diva
I'll weigh in with some ideas. Yes, sharp edges matter, but one can't be abrupt using them. Everything on ice should be patient and progressive. Think about this image. If I throw a rubber ball on concrete with force, it bounces back with force. If I drop it gently, it doesn't bounce too high. You want your skis to stay connected to the snow, you don't want them to chatter, and you want to get to the high edge angle in the fall line patiently.

Another must is to move your core toward the new inside ski/downhill ski to release from the old turn. Whether you're guiding the slide with somewhat flat skis or using an edged ski, you need to move down the fall line. Not by leaning or throwing your hip inside, but by extending off the old inside ski to the new one.

Pivot slips, talked about in another thread, are good to do to practice that move. And they're a great tactic to have in your arsenal for firm or icy and steep terrain.
Thank you! That’s the exact drill we were running. I was calling it like hockey stop turns but but I couldn’t recall the name. We began pivot slips today for the first time on blues then moved to the icy black and I just lost my marbles. I think I’ll practice on open icy blues with it more just to perfect it and then increase grade to that icy black.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Go to a blue or green trail and seek out the ice! Your skills will kick in, and you’ll get used to the scraping sound while knowing you are not facing Certain Death. I am a complete wimp about anything steep or bumpy, but the scraping and icy patches don’t freak me out on their own. They’ve been there since I learned to ski, and if I don’t freeze up, I seem to do just fine.

(I save my freezing up for terrifying black diamonds.)
 

scandium

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Aside from "sideslip the whole way down", things that have worked for me is:
- Be aware that it's there. Seems obvious/stupid but it mentally gears me up to change how I might ski that patch - which is mostly making sure I don't try and turn too quickly and don't panic.
- Keep your cool when you slide - because if you panic, you will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. The sliding sound makes me think "I'm going to die/fall over" but if you let that govern your skiing that's when you lose your centre of gravity, lean into the hill, and fall and slide the WHOLE way down.
- Try to find the soft patches - look ahead to see if there is softer snow
 

ski skuhl

Angel Diva
Another must is to move your core toward the new inside ski/downhill ski to release from the old turn. Whether you're guiding the slide with somewhat flat skis or using an edged ski, you need to move down the fall line. Not by leaning or throwing your hip inside, but by extending off the old inside ski to the new one.
I completely agree with this, in all of skiing and especially on steeps, keep your core centered over your skis, go where your skis are leading.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
One of my instructors likes to say.. “Guide the slide, ride the slide, hide the slide”. Kind of a fake it till you make it thing. Obviously you always want to try and aim for a better spot to turn, but that doesn’t always exist and sometimes there won’t be anything to grip. So his point is to stay ready and balanced over your skis and keep turning. Once you’ve made a turn and lock up your legs trying to slow down, you aren’t going to get anything else out of that turn and locking out your outside leg pushes you back into the trail and gives you even less ability to engage your edges. Keep turning, keep calm, keep nimble legs, keep balanced, ride it out.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
One of my instructors likes to say.. “Guide the slide, ride the slide, hide the slide”. Kind of a fake it till you make it thing. Obviously you always want to try and aim for a better spot to turn, but that doesn’t always exist and sometimes there won’t be anything to grip. So his point is to stay ready and balanced over your skis and keep turning. Once you’ve made a turn and lock up your legs trying to slow down, you aren’t going to get anything else out of that turn and locking out your outside leg pushes you back into the trail and gives you even less ability to engage your edges. Keep turning, keep calm, keep nimble legs, keep balanced, ride it out.
I really like that bolded part.

To get used to icy steep groomers when they frighten you, you've got to first get comfortable with sliding down them without much grip.

1. Learn to side-slip down a steep icy groomer. Can you go straight down, without left-right travel? Good. Great! Do it again, pointed in the other direction. Repeat, over and over, to purge the fear. OWN those side-slips.
2. Learn to do Falling Leafs on that same icy steep groomer. Falling Leaf is a side-slip with slight, intentional rhythmic fore-aft travel. The skis don't turn. They just take you forward, then backward. Learn this first on an icy not-so-steep groomer to get the movement pattern going, then take it to the steep icy groomer. Your line is still straight down the hill, but you go forward a little bit, then backwards a little bit, then forward a little bit, then backwards a little bit, keeping the line straight down the hill. Doing Falling Leaf cements the skill of controlling forward-backward travel while side-slipping. How to move fore and aft? Bend forward at the ankles to go forward; then open ankles to lean back on the back of the cuffs to go backward; turn your head to see where you are going. You will be side-slipping backwards intentionally, then forwards, then backwards again. Repeat. So, can you do Falling Leaf down an icy steep groomer staying in the middle of the trail the whole run? Great. Do it again, pointing skis the other way. Repeat until you have purged the fear of side-slipping backwards by learning to control it. OWN that backwards slipping.
3. Learn to do pivot slips on that icy steep groomer. Take a lesson for this!!! Pivot slips are complicated. You slip down a narrow corridor, no left-right travel, while pivoting skis to point left-right. You must have great control of edging and balance to do this without heading across the trail a bit. When you take the pivot slip lesson, be sure to show off your side-slips and falling leafs to your instructor at the start of the lesson.
4. Morph those pivot slips into turns on that icy steep groomer. Once you can do pivot slips over and over down that icy steep groomer, you'll be able to turn those pivot slips into graceful turns made with confidence. You'll be an expert at "guiding the slide" on steep ice. It's a worthy goal. Not that many recreational skiers can do pivot slips down an icy steep groomer, nor morph those pivot slips into graceful turns shaped with confidence. It will probably take a while to get yourself there.
 
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elemmac

Angel Diva
He took just me to a black run in the trees. For whatever reason I LOVE tree runs. It’s just my jam and there’s always powder. It was simply glorious.

What about trying to translate the mindset you have in trees towards icy slopes. You pick a line, and ski in between the trees. Pick your line and ski in between the ice. Shop for the piles of snow, or places that look slightly softer. When the trees get closer together, you have less turns to pick from...same with ice. Stop and assess the slope, pick a couple turns and execute. Stop, reassess, repeat.
 

Cyclone6

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This is a great thread! I came here to ask a very similar question. This weekend I decided to try a more difficult black that I hadn't done before. I get to the top and it's totally scraped off for the first 20 ft down or so. Going back wasn't a choice, so I went for it, and after my first turn, just could not get a grip for the next turn. I skidded down and felt pretty silly. Once I reached actual snow, I was just fine and it was a fun run. I think I need to learn to do pivot slips and just get more comfortable on ice in general.
 

shadoj

Angel Diva
A few more thoughts:

Skiing is just a series of controlled falls!

It's more or less the same position for initiating pivot slips (pure rotation) as well as speed-controlled short carved turns. Torso & pelvis aligned, pointed down fall line. Let your center of mass "fall" down the fall line, and let the skis pivot/carve under you to catch you as they go back across the fall line slightly downhill of you. Repeat.

Keep your skis on the ice when possible. Steeper slopes mean your feet need to tip downward more across the fall line as you pivot. Think of bringing your heels up with your hamstrings along with pointing your toes downward.

Pole plants don't work so well on pure ice. Pole tap for rhythm or go poleless for more balance practice.

Wait, wait, unweight, tips! Repeat :smile:
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
Yesterday one of the runs here that is usually icy, wasn't and that played a head game with me. I did not ski it as well as I can. So the reinforcement last night did it today. It's not as icy as it usually is, but I dealt with it better today.

We need snow....
 

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