Spring snow conditions advice and safety re: ice

[WhyKnot]

I would like to better understand snow conditions so I can continue progressing and skiing in spring without confronting sheets of ice. Yesterday I was out at Sunapee and I returned confused about spring snow (and giving myself an award for grit for riding out conditions that were challenging). Yesterday there were sheets of ice in the shade. Fun on flatter areas but super scary and unsafe on steeper areas. And then the snow was ALSO so variable that -- as I wrote in another thread -- that I was actually happy to have my 76s instead of my 88s because I would rather err on side of narrower when dealing with challenging ice (even if there was slush in other parts).

Earlier in the day (around 10:30) it was like balls of snow on hard pack (not sure what that snow is called) but felt loud and chattery and I did not feel as much control as I wanted. I waited for it to warm a bit and chose another trail and had a super nice run -- in the kind of snow I "thought" was spring snow: soft. Then I also encountered a sheet of ice on one traverse -- and that was just sliding/skidding down it (and that was the one that was fun since not too steep). Then later I headed down Chipmunk and towards the bottom it got so icy- like sheets of ice -- and I do not want to encounter that again (I had been told by one person to stay away from that slope but it got later in day and another person said it was "not bad" -- and I am not getting into their snow reports which are far from accurate, they really ought be more helpful with their reports like other places are). Anyway THEN I headed to an easy trail in the sun and it was slushy (now around 2 pm), so now I am going from fastest snow to slow snow. (Edit: And when I say sheets of ice, it was different than the ice I normally see where an area is skied out and it reveals hard pack underneath. This was shiny, icy surface.)

All to say, I have been wanting to continue to progress which now means understanding snow conditions enough to be safe around that level of ice. How to better understand this snow? Is this just "how it is" in Spring that there will be all of these different kinds of snow at a resort in the same day? I am eager to learn. Should I pick a different resort - maybe head more north (I cannot head west now because of Covid)? Pick slopes facing different directions? Or facing the sun? Go out later after 12 pm or what time? re: ice sheets - was this also because of the rain the day before (sure it must have been) but will I find ice typically anyway in Spring? Also; Are there ski areas in NH/VT known for great spring grooming? Any and all advice and education appreciated! I am typing this at home a wee bit afraid of heading out to ski today and finding that level of ice!! (But I am thinking pick a sunny trail... hmmm...). I look forward to learning about this all. Thank you all!

Quote Reply

 

[liquidfeet]

Spring conditions are more challenging than mid-winter for all those reasons you just described. Spring snow is variable. The ice can be more impenetrable than winter ice if the groomers hit it when it was warm the night before and afterwards it had the time to melt some more, destroying the corduroy ridges. It can freeze up into water ice. The softened snow in the sun can be hero snow, corn snow (pure bliss), both of which are fleeting and good, or heavy dense cream cheese or greasy melted butter or mashed potatoes or sticky rubber cement, all of which can do you in if you are not very careful.

People sing the praises of spring snow because they are bump skiers and the bumps are glorious when the sun hits them, or because the air is warmer which is pleasant and they stop skiing early and sit outside in the warm sun having a beer, watching others deal with the difficult snow.

More accidents happen in the spring because the conditions are challenging.

 

[WhyKnot]

@liquidfeet "water ice" ahhhh.... yes that's it!.... It was corduroy that for sure had no corduroy in it! Thanks for explaining how that occurred. So: What's the best advice to find corn snow or hero snow? Is this a result of sun hitting it for an hour or how long?, this way I can find the best terrain by picking the best facing slopes? (I just spoke with Queechee Ski Hill and they say their snow is great right now and they have a south facing slope).

I am happy skiing for even an hour and even taking one or two runs. I have goals to make certain trails this season and I'd love to keep feeling good skiing in March and achieving my goals, so I am happy to chase the best terrain as much as that is possible. (Also is Bretton Woods a more reliable place or Okemo or Bolton if anyone knows?

 

[liquidfeet]

@liquidfeet "water ice" ahhhh.... yes that's it!.... It was corduroy that for sure had no corduroy in it! Thanks for explaining how that occurred. So: What's the best advice to find corn snow or hero snow? Is this a result of sun hitting it for an hour or how long?, this way I can find the best terrain by picking the best facing slopes? (I just spoke with Queechee Ski Hill and they say their snow is great right now and they have a south facing slope).

I am happy skiing for even an hour and even taking one or two runs. I have goals to make certain trails this season and I'd love to keep feeling good skiing in March and achieving my goals, so I am happy to chase the best terrain as much as that is possible. (Also is Bretton Woods a more reliable place or Okemo or Bolton if anyone knows?

Food metaphors are pretty good for describing spring snow, yes?

General rule is follow the sun across the mountain; ski where it shines. The snow starts out as groomer-ice in some form, then if the day is sunny or the temps warms up, the snow softens into hero snow, becomes corn in some cases (lucky you!!), then it turns into mashed potatoes (this is when some people need to stop skiing if this is all there is), then sticky glop with puddles at the bottom. Snow that stays in the shade tends to stay cold and hard unless the temps rise a lot. As the day wears on, temps drop or clouds roll in and the snow begins to firm up again.

Well, that's been my experience anyway.

 

[Abbi]

I would like to better understand snow conditions so I can continue progressing and skiing in spring without confronting sheets of ice. Yesterday I was out at Sunapee and I returned confused about spring snow (and giving myself an award for grit for riding out conditions that were challenging). Yesterday there were sheets of ice in the shade. Fun on flatter areas but super scary and unsafe on steeper areas. And then the snow was ALSO so variable that -- as I wrote in another thread -- that I was actually happy to have my 76s instead of my 88s because I would rather err on side of narrower when dealing with challenging ice (even if there was slush in other parts).

Earlier in the day (around 10:30) it was like balls of snow on hard pack (not sure what that snow is called) but felt loud and chattery and I did not feel as much control as I wanted. I waited for it to warm a bit and chose another trail and had a super nice run -- in the kind of snow I "thought" was spring snow: soft. Then I also encountered a sheet of ice on one traverse -- and that was just sliding/skidding down it (and that was the one that was fun since not too steep). Then later I headed down Chipmunk and towards the bottom it got so icy- like sheets of ice -- and I do not want to encounter that again (I had been told by one person to stay away from that slope but it got later in day and another person said it was "not bad" -- and I am not getting into their snow reports which are far from accurate, they really ought be more helpful with their reports like other places are). Anyway THEN I headed to an easy trail in the sun and it was slushy (now around 2 pm), so now I am going from fastest snow to slow snow. (Edit: And when I say sheets of ice, it was different than the ice I normally see where an area is skied out and it reveals hard pack underneath. This was shiny, icy surface.)

All to say, I have been wanting to continue to progress which now means understanding snow conditions enough to be safe around that level of ice. How to better understand this snow? Is this just "how it is" in Spring that there will be all of these different kinds of snow at a resort in the same day? I am eager to learn. Should I pick a different resort - maybe head more north (I cannot head west now because of Covid)? Pick slopes facing different directions? Or facing the sun? Go out later after 12 pm or what time? re: ice sheets - was this also because of the rain the day before (sure it must have been) but will I find ice typically anyway in Spring? Also; Are there ski areas in NH/VT known for great spring grooming? Any and all advice and education appreciated! I am typing this at home a wee bit afraid of heading out to ski today and finding that level of ice!! (But I am thinking pick a sunny trail... hmmm...). I look forward to learning about this all. Thank you all!

Quote Reply

also at Sunapee when the conditions are going to be variable head right over to the Sun bowl. It will warm up and soften up the fastest. Except in the shade, of course and that is just the way it is everywhere. Then head back for the front side when it gets a little more sun on it. And the rest of the advice you’ve gotten is better than anything I would give you anyway!

 

[marzNC]

Should I pick a different resort - maybe head more north (I cannot head west now because of Covid)? Pick slopes facing different directions? Or facing the sun? Go out later after 12 pm or what time? re: ice sheets - was this also because of the rain the day before (sure it must have been) but will I find ice typically anyway in Spring?

There is something to be said for sticking with the same mountain in order to learn how to plan out a day in spring conditions. There won't be any set time, but with more experience of "following the sun" you'll be more likely to know where and when to go. Even when it's not too warm, start paying attention to when a trail is in the shade and when there is full sunshine. At my home hill (northern VA), there are two black trails from the summit (would be blue in the northeast). One gets sun by 9:00 while most of the other one stays in the shade until 10:00. It was in the 40s when I started skiing yesterday morning. I started on the sunny trail.

Keep an eye out for the local seniors. When you don't see any of them around as snow conditions deteriorate, it's probably time to call it a day.

 

[newboots]

I (re)learned this yesterday at Hunter. Second run, I took a familiar trail that was 100% in the shade. Skiing was fine but trying to stop slowly was an adventure! (Boarder lying on the side of the trail. I wanted to stop to see if all was well. Yes, texting.)

A lift partner kept asking if it was ice. Not the sort of ice that shines and glitters - I call it hardpack. But wow, it was really difficult to dig an edge into. 40s the day before, froze hard in the wee hours, likely after grooming.

A little later, I decided the snow looked soft enough from the lift to try a steeper trail. So much easier! The shady sides of the rollers were hardpack, but the rest was soft and swishy. It's not quite avalanche prep, but there does seem to be a sort of science to it!

 

[liquidfeet]

When a crowded mountain empties out in the middle of the day and you're still skiing, you either know with absolute certainty that you have skills the missing crowds don't have, or you should stop too.

 

[marzNC]

When a crowded mountain empties out in the middle of the day and you're still skiing, you either know with absolute certainty that you have skills the missing crowds don't have, or you should stop too.

Also the case that if you are starting out as soon as the lifts open, but there doesn't seem to be anyone else around then it's possible that the trails are all still pretty firm, meaning frozen solid because it was warm the day before and well below 32 overnight. What could look like very nice grooming could in reality be "washboard" that has no give at all.

 

[Après Skier]

The majority of my spring skiing experience is in Mammoth. Starting the day the snow is crunchy re-frozen corduroy which is more fun than it sounds. Softens as the day goes on finishing as “mashed potatoes" which is one of my favorite snow conditions (great for steep and bumpy slopes). Ideally I would have 2-sets of skis for springtime: groomer zoomer for the morning and soft mid-fat for the afternoon but, then I would need to carry 2-pairs of skis and in springtime I'm not in the mood for all that schlepping.

 

[Peppermint]

I follow Sunapee on Twitter and they have been talking about closing glades and certain trails because of the refreezing that was going on the past week. Take it slow. As we like to say in New England, "If you don't like the weather, wait a minute". Apply that to the snow conditions. On another note, Bretton Woods generally is less icy because they are very protected from the wind as they are in a valley so that would be a place to consider.

 

[liquidfeet]

.... On another note, Bretton Woods generally is less icy because they are very protected from the wind as they are in a valley so that would be a place to consider.

Having worked there I can assure you that on a crowded day the popular slopes and trails get as icy from repeat traffic as they do anywhere else. But wind is almost always not an issue. The snow that falls on a trail stays on the trail; it doesn't blow into the woods. In the glades, which are plentiful, less wind and less pitch mean their bumps generally stay mild and skiable.

 

[marzNC]

The majority of my spring skiing experience is in Mammoth. Starting the day the snow is crunchy re-frozen corduroy which is more fun than it sounds. Softens as the day goes on finishing as “mashed potatoes" which is one of my favorite snow conditions (great for steep and bumpy slopes). Ideally I would have 2-sets of skis for springtime: groomer zoomer for the morning and soft mid-fat for the afternoon but, then I would need to carry 2-pairs of skis and in springtime I'm not in the mood for all that schlepping.

Have you ever seen Floskis during late season at Mammoth? Adrian usually spends a few weeks there after other resorts are closed. He brings along demo skis for anyone who is interested. His skis are woodgrain, with a special triangle of stuff mountain on front of the skis near the tips. My ski buddy, Bill, and I encountered Adrian in May 2018. We ended up skiing with him and demo'ing for almost two hours. Bottom line is that I bought a pair of demo skis that summer.

Very hard to describe Floskis. The design is quite different for both the skis and the approach to mounting the binding. It's easy to shift the binding location to 4 different settings from All-Mountain to Deep Powder. So it's like having more than one pair of skis. Only downside is that the demo binding and special mount is very heavy to carry around.

I was skiing my Floskis in spring conditions in VA/WV this week. Since I treated them with DPS Phantom, I had a great time in a complete range of conditions. I was skiing a few inches of fresh powder at Canaan Valley on Tue morning (still snowing). By the afternoon it was in the 40s at nearby Timberline. The runout to the base lift was getting sticky. The double-black bump trails were still cold snow. The blue/black trails on the lower mountain had pushed-around snow that was soft, but not slushy. I had far more fun with the Floskis than if I'd only brought my usual narrower skis (78 underfoot) that I use in the east.

 

[WhyKnot]

Food metaphors are pretty good for describing spring snow, yes?

General rule is follow the sun across the mountain; ski where it shines. The snow starts out as groomer-ice in some form, then if the day is sunny or the temps warms up, the snow softens into hero snow, becomes corn in some cases (lucky you!!), then it turns into mashed potatoes (this is when some people need to stop skiing if this is all there is), then sticky glop with puddles at the bottom. Snow that stays in the shade tends to stay cold and hard unless the temps rise a lot. As the day wears on, temps drop or clouds roll in and the snow begins to firm up again.

Well, that's been my experience anyway.

Thank you as usual @liquidfeet . And to all here: thank you for openly sharing your knowledge. What a great forum. Glad I signed on after lurking for a while.

 

[DebbieSue]

People sing the praises of spring snow because they are bump skiers and the bumps are glorious when the sun hits them, or because the air is warmer which is pleasant

I LOVE spring skiing. Liquidfeet knows what she's talking about! I love bumps and I'm happy to go slow and I don't like being cold. If you fall (and I try to avoid that) it is soft, and you don't slide and have to "self-arrest." Corn is good, but I'll take mashed potatoes, glop . . . whatever. I also don't mind skiing in rain and drizzle and have had some wonderful uncrowded days at Bretton Woods, Loon, Waterville, in the RAIN!!! I like rain even in the winter, rain on the slopes is my friend, as long as there is some snow being rained on, and until it refreezes. Others don't like it . . . fine . . .less crowded for me.

The glades at Bretton Woods are a favorite (Roz's feels like a bushwacking adventure, sort of like liquidfeet's snowshoe pix), and the Sun Bowl at Sunapee the couple of times I've been there on a warm day is fabulous with great view of Lake Sunapee. Some other favorites when the snow is slushy/soft:
Agassiz at Bretton Woods
Lizette and Elk Park Meadows at Big Sky
Powerline Glades, Powderhorn and Bearclaw at Snowmass
Scarlett's Run at Aspen Highlands
Big Dipper under Supreme lift and Ballroom just alongside the blue side of the rope at Alta.
Someone who knows more about terrain than I do, will probably tell me that all of these have the same pitch within a few degrees!!!

 

[WhyKnot]

People sing the praises of spring snow because they are bump skiers and the bumps are glorious when the sun hits them, or because the air is warmer which is pleasant

I LOVE spring skiing. Liquidfeet knows what she's talking about! I love bumps and I'm happy to go slow and I don't like being cold. If you fall (and I try to avoid that) it is soft, and you don't slide and have to "self-arrest." Corn is good, but I'll take mashed potatoes, glop . . . whatever. I also don't mind skiing in rain and drizzle and have had some wonderful uncrowded days at Bretton Woods, Loon, Waterville, in the RAIN!!! I like rain even in the winter, rain on the slopes is my friend, as long as there is some snow being rained on, and until it refreezes. Others don't like it . . . fine . . .less crowded for me.

The glades at Bretton Woods are a favorite (Roz's feels like a bushwacking adventure, sort of like liquidfeet's snowshoe pix), and the Sun Bowl at Sunapee the couple of times I've been there on a warm day is fabulous with great view of Lake Sunapee. Some other favorites when the snow is slushy/soft:
Agassiz at Bretton Woods
Lizette and Elk Park Meadows at Big Sky
Powerline Glades, Powderhorn and Bearclaw at Snowmass
Scarlett's Run at Aspen Highlands
Big Dipper under Supreme lift and Ballroom just alongside the blue side of the rope at Alta.
Someone who knows more about terrain than I do, will probably tell me that all of these have the same pitch within a few degrees!!!

@DebbieSue - Rain! I never really thought too much about it! Tomorrow may be a good day for it. So, with rain, it is just.... wet?... and the snow does not get icy but softer? I grew up in a rainy place (well, with sunshine too) so I am used to it, never thought of skiing in it, of course would just need to stay warm! I may give it a try!

 

[liquidfeet]

@DebbieSue - Rain! I never really thought too much about it! Tomorrow may be a good day for it. So, with rain, it is just.... wet?... and the snow does not get icy but softer? I grew up in a rainy place (well, with sunshine too) so I am used to it, never thought of skiing in it, of course would just need to stay warm! I may give it a try!

The snow when it's raining gets very nice - wet hero snow, forgiving of technical goofs. I love to ski in the rain, just like @DebbieSue.

The problem is water creeping through not-quite-water-proof clothing. I make sure my fabrics are water-proof at the start of the season by spraying them heavily. I also re-water-proof my mittens. But the mittens always allow water in, no matter what I do to them. I just change them mid-day. Since it's raining, it's relatively warm so that wetness inside my mittens stays warm from body heat.

Early last season I skied two full days in continuous rain. I wore a raincoat. Really. That worked, but I looked dorky. I packed a change of mittens for each day, and when I took off the wet ones I had to wring them out before storing them. The snow was friendly and fun. For the rest of the week the temps dropped. You know what happened. We had white ice where it looked like snow and transparent gray water ice where there had been puddles.

It was a great week of instructor training, in early December, and a good way to start the season since we had to deal with varying "spring conditions."

 

[marzNC]

When I ski in drizzle at my home hill (northern VA), I use my Hot Buns to keep my butt dry when riding the chairlift. Was chatting with someone I know who is a local (over 70). He skis for 2-3 hours in the morning almost every weekday. He likes light rain because it means fewer people bother to ski. The nature of the location and shape of the mountain is that there are plenty of times that it's raining in the valley but only a little or not at all on the trails on the upper mountain.

 

[WhyKnot]

When I ski in drizzle at my home hill (northern VA), I use my Hot Buns to keep my butt dry when riding the chairlift....

The snow when it's raining gets very nice - wet hero snow, forgiving of technical goofs. I love to ski in the rain, just like @DebbieSue.

The problem is water creeping through not-quite-water-proof clothing"

Change of mittens and keeping bum dry with... Hot Buns! Who knew! I love learning on this site thanks! I think I would like rain skiing, I am used to rain from living in South Florida and from sailing, etc. Of course getting drenched in the sun is a different beast -- so now I am gonna work on the waterproof stuff and google Hot Buns...

 

[DebbieSue]

It's helpful to wear a layer that's at least part wool (keeps warm when wet) when skiing in rain. Like liquidfeet, I've found that there is no hope for keeping mittens dry, so swapping out midday is great idea. Also pay close attn when buckling boots and make sure gaiters are over the cuffs. Raincoat or rainjacket a good idea and not that dorky, or a camping poncho if it's not so free flowing as to get caught up in the lift. There is also the practical Yankee option of wearing large trash bag and pushing thru holes for head and arms!