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Never ending boot saga continues

MissySki

Angel Diva
Ugh, that is exactly what I am trying to avoid. All of it. Super low instep and rediculous low volume is my whole problem. Definitely don't want boots expanding in me. Liners packing out is bad enough.

I feel your pain, I especially hate my low instep! I am a little jealous of those who also have a narrow foot overall though because my forefoot is always my biggest issue it seems. The ratio is so far off that to get a “close enough” fit for the skinny ankle/heel and low volume that usually means a narrow last overall which makes it excruciating on my wide forefoot bones. I never seem to be able to be truly pain free there, and am always worried to create too much space there as well (though that has NEVER happened!!). I still have the Fischer boots in a closet, so decided to pull out the liners yesterday for fun.. forgot how much padding and foam we put around the ankle and on the instep portion of the tongue at the end to try and take up space in boots that were not meant to have to do all that stuff with after vacuuming. I think they improved the liner after my version, so that could have changed things with current models. Also there is the fact that bootfitters had pretty much no experience with the system when I was using them, that has surely changed by a huge amount nowadays, perhaps if my vacuum had been done well the first time it would have been different.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Anybody know if cabrio boots can be fitted with zipfits or foam liners? I tried to look it up, but couldn't find anything other than "these liners work for ALL boots." Anybody have any experience with that?
Do you mean the Dalbello Cabrio or "cabrio" in general? I have a 3-buckle Nordica boot that I think fits the description of having a "shell tongue." Those are the boots for which I just re-molded the PowerWrap Intuition liners from my previous 4-buckle boots, also from Nordica. Note that replacing the original heat-molded liners in the 3-buckle boots made the boots a bit stiffer. The liner also comes up a little higher, but I was expecting that based on the experience adding Intuition liners to the previous boots.

https://www.dalbello.it/en/technologies/cabrio-design/

https://www.skimag.com/gear/anatomy-ski-boot
"Cabrio/mid-entry/shell-tongue: In a cabrio design, the shell has a tongue, which opens forward like a convertible (hence “cabrio”). It’s easy to get into and out of, and proponents love the quality of the flex that the shell-tongue provides. Originally popularized as the Flexon Comp—which is still fondly cherished by many—this design has more recently been revived by two brands, Dalbello, with its Krypton line, and Full Tilt, which has revived the Flexon design, using the same molds and closure systems."
 

mustski

Angel Diva
I believe the Chakra come with an Intuition liner, don't they?
Yes. They are a 98 last. Zip Fit does work with the cabrio boots; I'm not sure about boot doc. I'm not trying to pour water on your hopes here, but I tried both the Chakra and the Kryzma - with two types of intuition liners - and both left me with the same old heel and ankle movement in my problem left foot. At first they were good (about 10 days) but once they packed in same old stuff. I spent 5 years in pain as boot fitters padded, shimmed, heel lifted, and stuffed the boot. The Dalbello I am currently in also had the same problem on the first day out, but the boot doc liners solved it. I am not nearly as narrow footed as you are. My right foot loved the intuition liner. They are nice and warm, but do not take up volume in a boot. They just mold to your feet. Only zip fit and boot doc take up volume.

My friend who used to live in Big Sky recommended Andrew - the owner of grizzly outfitters and says he guarantees for life. I mention this because if the shell of the Chakra works, you can always get boot doc liners while in Big Sky. It is important to get any and all shell work done first -before boot doc liners.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I guess I mean cabrio in general. I have always had 4 buckle boots, so I don't know much about them. I would think that the instep on cabrio boots would be too high for me, and I would probably still need tons of padding or an aftermarket liner. Do cabrio style boots really flex/feel that different from 4 buckle styles?
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yes. They are a 98 last. Zip Fit does work with the cabrio boots; I'm not sure about boot doc. I'm not trying to pour water on your hopes here, but I tried both the Chakra and the Kryzma - with two types of intuition liners - and both left me with the same old heel and ankle movement in my problem left foot. At first they were good (about 10 days) but once they packed in same old stuff. I spent 5 years in pain as boot fitters padded, shimmed, heel lifted, and stuffed the boot. The Dalbello I am currently in also had the same problem on the first day out, but the boot doc liners solved it. I am not nearly as narrow footed as you are. My right foot loved the intuition liner. They are nice and warm, but do not take up volume in a boot. They just mold to your feet. Only zip fit and boot doc take up volume.

My friend who used to live in Big Sky recommended Andrew - the owner of grizzly outfitters and says he guarantees for life. I mention this because if the shell of the Chakra works, you can always get boot doc liners while in Big Sky. It is important to get any and all shell work done first -before boot doc liners.

Thanks for the ti[ about Andrew. My first goal is to get a better shell fit. If boot docs are needed, then cool, I'll try it since the zipfits aren't working for the low-volume/narrow forefoot. The only problem with getting boots done out west is that I live in PA. :/
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Just got off the phone with Kim and Dieter. Holy cow, are they nice folks. They were super slammed when I called, so I offered to call back but Kim took my number and called ME back. Dieter told me that his stock is limited, but that I should come up this Saturday and he will make time to work with me (even on the holiday weekend). He was very patient on the phone and listened to my dissertation on my measurements, by issues, what I have tried, etc. He said he wants to try me in Dalbello Chakras, and possibly a junior race boot. So I'm making the road trip on Saturday to arrive around 1PM.

Anybody know if cabrio boots can be fitted with zipfits or foam liners? I tried to look it up, but couldn't find anything other than "these liners work for ALL boots." Anybody have any experience with that?

Keep us posted! They are very nice. :smile:
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I guess I mean cabrio in general. I have always had 4 buckle boots, so I don't know much about them. I would think that the instep on cabrio boots would be too high for me, and I would probably still need tons of padding or an aftermarket liner. Do cabrio style boots really flex/feel that different from 4 buckle styles?
I switched to a 3-buckle boot because when I wanted more of a performance boot, any 4-buckle boots were way too tall for my short legs with muscular calves (dancing, soccer, etc.). They were perhaps a little on the soft side for an advanced skier, but at 5'0", 112 lbs, don't really want stiff boots. Bottom line is that the new boots fit my feet and legs. The stock liner started packing out after a couple seasons (50+ days), but that's to be expected.

Finding an experienced boot fitter who listens well is the key. If you need tweaks done by another boot fitter, during a trip or at home if buy while on a trip, that can work. Just need to be clear about your history and not do too much. I and my ski buddy, Bill, have had Intuition liners added during a trip, and have had tweaks done during longer trips to Alta. I had no qualms about going in to Boot Doctors at Taos to continue working on my current boots after getting the Intuition liners re-molded in VA in early Jan. Made the decision to do that based on talking to a boot fitter at Mammoth last spring who deals with Intuition and Zip Fit. As a boot fitter at Boot Doctors (there are 4-5 on staff), "it's a process."
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Softer flex may not be a bad thing. I have been in 110 flex mostly, which is great for groomers, but I have to be on my A game in bumps and tree with that. I don't know if I am really experiencing flex the way it should be anyway, with all the fit aids and looseness I have going on.

I did notice that under 30 degrees, the x max 110 with the zipfits is like concrete. I can manage it, but it is kinda tough on soft snow like that.
 

Mary Brosnan

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Just got off the phone with Kim and Dieter. Holy cow, are they nice folks. They were super slammed when I called, so I offered to call back but Kim took my number and called ME back. Dieter told me that his stock is limited, but that I should come up this Saturday and he will make time to work with me (even on the holiday weekend). He was very patient on the phone and listened to my dissertation on my measurements, by issues, what I have tried, etc. He said he wants to try me in Dalbello Chakras, and possibly a junior race boot. So I'm making the road trip on Saturday to arrive around 1PM.

Anybody know if cabrio boots can be fitted with zipfits or foam liners? I tried to look it up, but couldn't find anything other than "these liners work for ALL boots." Anybody have any experience with that?
Last season after being in boots that were too big I got a pair of Dalbello Chakras with an Intuition Liner. I had custom insoles made for the first time. What a difference! I have a very low volume foot with skinny heels, ankles and calves. These boot have been AMAZING. I love them. Would highly recommend trying them on to see how they feel on your foot. Good luck! Boot fitting can be overwhelming but finding the right one makes it all worthwhile!
 

mustski

Angel Diva
Another thought is that your zip fits can be adjusted to fit new shells. Be sure to ask about that at the same time as getting new boots. Even if the new boots come with intuition liners, you can get the zip fits adapted at the same time and give yourself a second option. As for flex, it's hard to compare numbers - even within a manufacturer. I found the Kryzmas too hard on their top setting, the chakras were too soft on their lowest setting. With the Kyrzmas, I took the "doo hickey"out and with the Chakras set it at it's highest level. My current boots (also Dalbello) are a 90 and feel the same as the Kryzma low and the Chakra high. It all comes down to how it works for you.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Another thought is that your zip fits can be adjusted to fit new shells. Be sure to ask about that at the same time as getting new boots. Even if the new boots come with intuition liners, you can get the zip fits adapted at the same time and give yourself a second option. As for flex, it's hard to compare numbers - even within a manufacturer. I found the Kryzmas too hard on their top setting, the chakras were too soft on their lowest setting. With the Kyrzmas, I took the "doo hickey"out and with the Chakras set it at it's highest level. My current boots (also Dalbello) are a 90 and feel the same as the Kryzma low and the Chakra high. It all comes down to how it works for you.
I'm not even sure what works for me. At times, my boots have felt too stiff, especially in the 20s, but in the 30s they are a hit softer and the flex feels right. I tend to drive through tongue hard on groomers and steeps, but I've been trying to improve my bump/glade/crud skiing the past two years, and I learned to take most of it in my knees because my boots will toss me (or I'll slide more in my boots). I've been thinking of having my boots softened so I can have more versatility, so maybe at this point a lower flex would be better. Super stiff has been nice, and it helps me drive my kenjas for sure, but I want to have more versatility so I can improve in other areas.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
FWIW, I haven't had a lesson in years. Every year, I've been waiting to get my boots sorted out first. I didn't want to take a lesson in boots that I had to fight to control. Seemed like a waste to take a higher level (beyond intermediate) lesson where I need precision when I can't trust my boots.

Especially last year. Good grief, I felt like I had regressed to a very sloppy intermediate level. I was falling on blues, and previously I was only ever really losing it on Upper Gunbarrel (our steepest, moguliest double black), and only when I was pushing myself. Quite humbling to yard sale under a blue lift (minuteman) that frequently. So frustrating!

I really can't wait to get the boot issue resolved so I can take advantage of the season pass discount on lessons.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Go ahead and take a lesson now. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Disclaimer: I'm an instructor, so I'm always in favor of lessons.
+1

Disclaimer: I'm not an instructor. I'm an older skier who had the patience to work on improving technique over 3-5 years for two reasons: 1) to try to stay a better skier than my daughter, and 2) to continue skiing at a high level after knee rehab (not a skiing injury).

I failed for Goal #1 since my daughter became Level 8 (of 9) at Alta by age 11 (started at age 4). But succeeded with Goal #2. I'm skiing far more challenging terrain off-piste at big mountains at age 62 than I did when annual spring break trips to Alta started about ten years ago.

By the time I started taking lessons regularly, I'd learned what's involved for PSIA Certification. Started with very soft recreational boots and no custom footbeds. Most of my lessons in the last seven years have been with Level 3 instructors (or equivalent years of teaching experience), plus a few privates with Examiners. Combination of Massanutten and destination resorts. In general, the investment of time (lessons, practice) and money has been worth it. Not stopping either. Had a private at Mnut in early Jan with the resident Examiner just to work on left turns. Continuation of efforts the last few years. Best $150 I've ever spent on skiing. I finally was able to really feel what happens with the correct motion. And repeat often enough at the end of the lesson to get the feeling ingrained to the point I could replicate it the next time I was skiing groomers at a big mountain a few weeks later.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Should I sign up for a lower level lesson then if I do? Like, a step or two below where I was before?
From my experience, it's not the level of the lesson that matters. It's the experience of the instructor. After that, it's how much you are willing to mix in practice with runs just for fun. Lots of ways pay closer attention for a few turns even while mostly just skiing.

As an example, I have friends who have taken Intermediate lessons at Alta during midweek. One was an advanced skier during a midseason trip. She got to work with one of the most experienced L3 instructor at Alta Ski School. Signed up for a semi-private lesson with that instructor later that week. Another friend was a cautious intermediate during a spring break trip with her kids. She had three consecutive solo lessons with a L3 instructor with about 30 years experience, 20 at Solitude before he moved to Alta Ski School. He had her move from greens to easy blues that week. Her total skiing experience at the time was about 5 days at Massanutten over three seasons, with a lesson each of the holiday weekends I went with her and her kids. The kids were relatively young, so each of her ski days probably included at most 4 hours on snow, including long waits for the beginner lifts the first couple seasons.

At Mnut, there are times when L3 instructors (or equivalent years teaching) are in line-up for the adv. beginner/intermediate lessons. Needless to say, they teach the most experienced students. My daughter had a few very good lessons when she was a tween as an intermediate. I made her take a lesson at the beginning of every season after she was old enough for clinic and less interested in ski school. Did the same for my friend's kids when they became tweens. Had I known what I learned later, I would've taken some intermediate lessons at Mnut myself.

I've had quite a few lessons in recent years that included people who were at a lower ability level. Sometimes friends for semi-private lessons, sometimes group lessons. The way I think, I've found that I can learn a lot observing how an instructor teaches someone else. I'm a visual learner, especially for sports. It's very helpful to see what a slight change can make in someone else's skiing. For instance, standing up a little taller or getting their hands in a different position.

My thinking about group lessons might be rubbing off on my ski buddy Bill. He was an advanced/expert skier in high school in Colorado decades ago. The last two seasons he was in a Taos Ski Week at the highest level, with the same instructor both times (6 consecutive morning lessons). His group was skiing double-blacks (seriously steep terrain with bumps and trees) most of the week. Last week he chose to stay in a lower level Ski Week that worked on blue bumps and only did black bumps later in the week. He said he wanted to work on fundamentals. After a run one afternoon down some blue bumps, he said that all the little pieces he's learned over a few years had come together for a few turns. Can't work on the subtle points of advanced technique on challenging terrain.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
At Roundtop, you have to sign up as a novice, beginner, intermediate, or advanced lesson. I'm not sure what I should say. I definitely don't want to hold a group back if I can't keep up, so I'm leaning toward intermediate.
 

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