Quad fatigue and boots

[Christy]

I wanted to share this experience in the hopes it might help someone with the same problem.

I've had horrible quad fatigue and pain for the last two seasons, and no amount of lessons could get me past it. I work out, am active outdoors year round, and yet would watch my Iowa in laws who ski once a year and don't exercise outski me because I was practically collapsing on the side of the hill. Since I only learned a few years ago I believed my instructors when they'd tell me that I just need to work on finishing my turns, or I just need more time on the mountain, or I just need to flex my ankles a bit more. I had a bootfitting and actually went back twice to get adjustments/custom footbeds, and my bootfitter (supposedly the best around) didn't think the issue could be the boots. When I'd ask instructors about the possiblilty that it might be a problem with my skis or boots I was told that skiing is 90% mental and only 10% gear. I've been told to drink more water, eat more bananas, wear CR-X tights and take supplements. This despite the fact I was telling people I wanted to die sometimes after ONE RUN. This is not normal. This is not a problem of not eating bananas.

In complete desperation I made it a mission to get to the bottom of this, and I found a bunch of threads on epicski.com where people posted about the same problem, which was (they discovered) caused by too much forward lean in their boots. I went out the next day and bought new boots. Thankfully the sales guy took me seriously--I was prepared for "are you sure you're in shape?" Or, "You must be in the back seat." I warned my husband that if any sales person brought up banana consumption I was going to punch them. I got Dalbello KR Storms--the sales guy thought that with all the adjustments you can make on them, they'd work for me. Immediately, just standing in them, I noticed a difference. I can't even stand in my other boots without fatigue. I skied in them today, all day, and almost cried. NO pain. NO fatigue. NO problems. They haven't even been fitted.

I can't believe how much money I've spent on lessons over the past 2 years, how much time I've wasted in my old boots, how many times I went to the bootfitter, and NO ONE recognized the possibility that it might be the boots. I'm feeling extremely surly toward my old bootfitter and every teacher I've ever had, but I finally feel like I can move forward now. If anyone else has the same issue I hope they find this post or those on epicski, and I hope they kick anyone that tells them to eat more bananas.

[PowDiva85]

I am so glad you made this post!! I used to suffer the same symptoms, I could never understand why my quads got so tired and burned so quickly even though I skied often and work out regularly. It was not until I started working in the ski industry and learned about how important balanced equipment was that I solved the problem and realized what was going on. At the ski shop I work at now (all womens specific) we take the spoilers out of every boot as soon as it hits our shelves and open and up-right the cuffs so that women can stand in the most upright position possible. If someone needs the spoiler to take up volume we can always put it back in but for most people it just causes you to stand in a more "forced" position creating fatigue. The other part to the equation (or atleast my equation) is the forward ramp of the binding. If I am on a binding that tips me too far forward my quads immediately start to tire again even though I am in an upright boot. Forward lean in womens boots is always an issue because of where our calves tend to sit the forward lean effect often gets exaggerated because it hits us at the widest part of our leg. Many manufacturers are starting to realize this and make women's boots more upright, tulip the cuff out and add extra adjustments (such as the Dalbello) to give boot fitters the tools to solve such problems. I am sorry you struggled for so long with people who should have known the solution!! Good for you for sticking with it and getting the problem solved!

[Christy]

Thanks! I actually skied with the spoiler in today but I'll take it out next time and see what happens. I was probably more upright today than I needed to be, I was just so happy to not be in pain that I didn't do the adjustments I could have. I know I should still go to the fitter but I'm a little hesitant. The shop where I bought them has a fitter, so I'll give them a try this time.

I've been told most women's bindings are higher in back than in front these days. Is that true?

[F&M]

Question: What is a spoiler? I am having problems with forward lean in my boots, too, and am still in the boot fitting process. Thanks!

[PowDiva85]

yes, almost all bindings (mens and womens) have a heel that is higher than the toe. It varies widely by manufacturer and model but the Z10/Z12 series from salomon has a low ramp, enough for me to be able to pressure the front of the ski but not so much as to cause my quads to burn. The right amount of forward tilt is different for every body and every boot though.

[PowDiva85]

the spoiler is a piece of plastic that sits directly behind your calf. Sometimes its velcroed in or bolted in. Some boots have cams that you rotate with an allen key to open the width of the cuff instead. If you tell me what boot model you are in I can probably tell you which type you have.

[Bumblebee]

Christy - really good to hear you've got new boots and are now back on form! I currently have a pair of boots which have never been good (black toenails anyone? 4 out of 10 falling off?) - but fitted by supposedly the best guy around - and a regular on epic. I guess everyone has their off days. But it is hard I think to question their expertise sometimes.

[SnowflakeADK]

Congrats Christy!
I too had your exact issues w/ ski boots and understand the frustration. I had a couple of boots I couldn't even stand in (much less ski) without quad burnout. So frustrating. I found the solution much like you, through perusing the web forums and being persistant w/ the shops to help me find the cause and fix. I'm also in the Dalbello KR storms and love the fit and adjustablity. I'm often tweaking this or that to find what works best. I found that, for me, the most balanced setting is the one w/o any of the fwd lean wedges. I think it's something like 11* per the specs. Do you know how this boot compares to others in ramp angles? I mean is it fairly high or low comparatively? Just a geek question to ask, I suppose, but I believe that if I understand what works w/ current set up when its time to replace I'll know what to look for! lol

Anyway, glad for you and your breakthrough in boots. It opened a whole new world of skiing pleasure for me, and I hope it does for you too!!

[Ski Diva]

Originally Posted by PowDiva85

The other part to the equation (or atleast my equation) is the forward ramp of the binding. If I am on a binding that tips me too far forward my quads immediately start to tire again even though I am in an upright boot.

I think this is the thinking behind Volkl's new Bio-Logic system, where they raised the toe in the binding to provide a more neutral stance and improve efficiency in the quads and hamstrings.

[Jilly]

Lange has a new boot coming out next year with less degree of forward lean. Like 2%, but...

I had the same experience with the Rossi "soft" boot. Not just the muscle fatigue, but I felt like I was skiing in high heel shoes. Too much ramp in the boot. I went to a boot fitter finally and he recommended a completely different boot. First thing he said was "you're an instructor, you need to stand up." The forward lean was way too much.

So glad that the industry is realizing that we can get our weight forward without all the gimzo's. We just need a few.

[F&M]

Originally Posted by PowDiva85

the spoiler is a piece of plastic that sits directly behind your calf. Sometimes its velcroed in or bolted in. Some boots have cams that you rotate with an allen key to open the width of the cuff instead. If you tell me what boot model you are in I can probably tell you which type you have.

Atomic Renu. I am having several problems with the boot--low volume feet and forward lean. I'm getting some great help on this forum on the former problem, and one of the suggestions was to remove the spoilers--but I didn't know what that meant. Thanks!!

[Severine]

Glad you posted this! I had the same problem when I first bought my Nordica Olympia Beasts. The dude who made my custom footbeds didn't adjust them for the heel lift in the footboard that came with the boots and I was really ramped up...and in a lot of pain. They kept saying I would just have to get used to a more aggressive stance and the problem was from upgrading from beginner/recreational boots to a more performance boot but in the end, it was because they set the boots up wrong. Once I had work done by someone who knew what he was doing (which resulted in having new unweighted footbeds made because the first ones were THAT messed up), the problem immediately went away. Immediate difference!

Dalbello Krypton Storms are nice boots! I have a pair I'm experimenting with that are a tight 1 finger's-width shell fit (very tight) but they are amazing! Glad you're liking them!

[Christy]

I had the same problem when I first bought my Nordica Olympia Beasts

Those were my boots. Interesting about the footboard. Since that was under my liners I never even thought about it but you're right, it has quite a ramp. It did occur to me to just take my boots to another fitter but since I'd already been 3 times without results it just seemed easier to get new boots.

[Severine]

Originally Posted by Christy

Those were my boots. Interesting about the footboard. Since that was under my liners I never even thought about it but you're right, it has quite a ramp. It did occur to me to just take my boots to another fitter but since I'd already been 3 times without results it just seemed easier to get new boots.

Very interesting! Regardless, I think you'll be very happy with the Storms, even if you weren't exactly planning on buying another pair of boots.

[Nadine_A]

I read this thread and my first thought was ..."Geez, I really hope I don't have the same issue". Alas, it hits the nail on the head

I bought my Lange Exclusive 80s in 08. After hours and countless boots, they were the most comfortable fit. They are freeride boots, which are supposedly less rigid than the traditional boots. Taking them out on the slopes was another matter though. Leg fatigue, numb feet, sore toes, etc. Oh and Bublebee, yes....black toes (just awesome for sandals in summer!)

I've had them refitted and custom beds made, but they still caused me issues. I've tried not buckeling them on the lift, flexing them before every run, wearing them around the house in the off season, but the problem persists. It takes DAYS to get to a point where I don't have rest on the longer runs. Initally it's a fight for me to stay out for the full day, which was never a problem before. Last winter I such a fixture on a particular spot (the winners podium set halfway down) on a run, the snow patrol guys would stop to ask if I was okay. I stopped there on EVERY run just to wait for feeling to return to my feet.

I am also fit and work out religiously, and have shed tears of frustration and pain. The worst is on the T-bars where I have to "ski uphill"

Still I persevere. They did get marginally better, but I'm not sure whether that was because I got used to the pain and the legs just got stronger or if they are finally moulding...well except for the toes... The plan was to see a fitter when I travel to Tahoe for Diva Week to get an adjustment made (again). I've also bought a Hot Gear bag which I hope will soften them somewhat, so they're at least a little bit more comfortable at the start of the day.

Now I don't know... I want to get this sorted before the Ski Clinic, because I really don't want to be struggling to keep up with the group. It also doesn't help that I haven't skied in 5 months and only have 2 possible ski days before the clinic

Any advice you Divas can provide is appreciated. Also, if you know anywhere or anyone in Tahoe that can help, that would be awesome.

[Christy]

All I can tell you is that my new boots might be the best $500 I ever spent. Your situation sounds as frustrating as mine was. What are we paying money to experts for if they can't help us with these problems? I still can't believe that not only did no one suggest the problem could be my boots, but that I was told explicity that it wasn't.

Is there a different shop you can go to, explain the problem, and see what their ideas are? Otherwise, I'd try to do that as soon as I got to Tahoe. Day 1 of my unfitted, un-broken in new boots was better than any day in the previous 2 years for me. If no one here gives you recommendations for a Tahoe shop, there should be some on the boot forum at epicski.com.

[SnowflakeADK]

Originally Posted by Christy

I still can't believe that not only did no one suggest the problem could be my boots, but that I was told explicity that it wasn't.

I was told I was "overthinking" it and in a nutshell should just shut up and ski!

[Severine]

Originally Posted by SnowflakeADK

I was told I was "overthinking" it and in a nutshell should just shut up and ski!

I've been told that for a multitude of skiing issues, but that's usually by DH.

[PowDiva85]

I used to be in the Lange FR 100 last season. Similar reasons... it felt the best on my foot, a very close, snug fit with little slop compared to my cushy dolomites. Fortunately I was on a low ramp binding so I did not feel it my quads as much as my shins. I skied in a camp in crested butte and bruised my toenail and my shins hurt so bad it was awful and I knew it was because of the forward lean. The remedy we found works (because the FR series does not have a spoiler or cuff adjustment options) is to heat the back of the cuff and bend it back. Langes are the worst when it comes to forward lean, they are so aggressive and provide little to no adjustments. It frustrating because the lower part of the shell fits so great, it is exciting to hear they may be coming out with a model with less forward lean.

[Gloria]

Here I thought I was the only one who had issues with forward lean.

Powdiva85-
I have been researching boots in terms of both lower heel and more upright stance. It seems one boot that has come up is the lange freeride 100 (110?) Have read its built on a more upright mens last. Is this wrong info? What about Head? I am trying to kind of narrow down options by brand because my orthopedic "issues" requiring this combo are pretty specific yet my foot isn't so bad to fit. So I am trying to narrow some options down so I only have to go through the whole story once and not all over town. I know wishful thinking...