Initiating a Turn

[vickie]

I am skiing at an intermediate level and I still do not know how to initiate turns correctly. I will take a few private lessons this year and plan to address this issue first, but would like to understand and be able to visualize this skill.

I've been told:

• initiate a turn with the downhill ski (which will become the new uphill ski)
• press down with the opposite big toe (to turn left, press down with the big toe on the right foot)
• press down/out with the little toe of the side you want to turn toward (to initiate a turn to the right, press down and out with the little toe on the right foot)
• roll ankles to the downhill side
• move body laterally over the front of the downhill ski (puts weight toward the outside tip of the downhill side)

What is the currently accepted correct method for initiating a turn?

[Puh-leeze don't say "roll your ankles" ... that's the one that makes my brain hurt! I can't even imagine my ankle rolling after all the trouble I've gone to to get it seated securely in my boot.]

I was all set to purchase the "Sofa Ski School" DVD but when I previewed the part on turning and he mentioned leaning the knees, I froze -- out of fear that I might learn his method and then be told yet again that I'm doing it wrong.

Help! Is there a good, solid correct a-b-c process for initiating a turn?

[Christy]

I love it! I have been told all of these and more (don't roll anything, just turn the skis; roll your knees; all weight to your outside ski...). I don't even know what I do at this point, but my skis turn. I'm looking forward to the responses because I too wonder what most people do.

[SuZieCoyote]

Rolling my ankles really does work for me. Because the boots fit so well, the skis instantly move to their edges. I have been taking lessons from some really good people and they all tell me (and I observe) that the turns should be all in the feet. The knees and hips follow, but it is about moving from edge to edge by turning the feet. Other good advice I am getting is bend at the hips to get a little lower when the terrain is steep or challenging, but not at the waist. Makes the ankles easier to roll.

[mountainxtc]

When you say you are skiing at intermediate level, does that mean you are comfortably parallel or do you struggle to initiate a parallel turn?

The mechanics of turn initiation will change slightly depending on whether you are making a skidded or a carved turn. But I will say this: the turning effort must start at the feet.

I personally dislike the "press down on the outside ski" teaching method as I find this encourages students to push the outside ski away from them instead of balancing on it.

As a very simple breakdown of mechanics: as you complete a parallel turn, the two uphill edges of your skis are providing grip on the snow. In order to initiate a new turn you must simultaneously roll the skis off those edges to allow them to turn freely without getting "stuck", progressively rolling across the base of the ski through "flat" and finally back to the new uphill edges.

Try the following. Find some terrain with pitch (a blue run is ideal) and stand still with your skis parallel across the hill. you will find that your two uphill edges are providing you with the grip you need to prevent you from sliding sideways down the hill. Take a moment to ensure you are getting this edge hold by rolling just your lower joints up the hill rather than tipping your entire body into the hill. practice flattening the skis by rolling your lower joints (knees and ankles) away from the hill so you are sideslipping. if this idea of "rolling" doesn't sit well with you, think instead of shifting your weight across the bottom of your feet from the uphil side towards the downhill side. progressively roll those joints back into the hill to engage the edges and come to a stop. practice this a lot.

once you are comfortable with this move, go to flat terrain on a green run. begin skiing across the hill and try this move to flatten your skis with a little momentum. one your skis are flat, stop moving and do nothing while you balance on the flat ski. wait until your skis are pointing straight down the hill before you stop. this is called a patience turn. the sidecut (parabolic shape) of your skis means that once they are flat they will turn without further input from you. you will pick up a little speed doing this exercise which is why you are on flat terrain. repeat this many times, single turns until you are super balanced just flattening the skis and waiting for them to turn.

Next try linking some turns like this. don't rush. make sure you flattening the skis and waiting for them to turn down the hill all by themselves. finish the turn simply by pointing your toes the way you want you skis to go. this is an exercise to help you to acquire the correct feelings. obviously you cannot do this on a steeper pitch or you would be going at warp speed! Once you are comfortable linking patience turns, try turning your feet a little sooner. roll the skis flat as before, but continue turning them as soon as you feel them go flat. you should never have a moment in a real turn where you are just standing on your skis waiting for them to turn by themselves. if you struggle to initiate the turn you probably aren't being patient enough in the flattening phase. wait a split second longer to ensure you are not trying to turn your skis while they are still stuck on the old uphill edges. you will need to be more patient on flatter terrain or at slow speeds. once you have this feeling of rolling from your uphill edges through flat so you can initiate turn without getting "stuck" you will be away.

Let me know if this makes sense - again, it is hard explaining something like this without demonstrations!

[Jilly]

You need to video that with the explaination. Good!!

Steve Young was all about touch and grip at convention and it seems to work, just like you've described. And our Venus on Snow seminar was exactly that - patience turn, delay turn, is was all about the process and not to make it too fast.

[vickie]

Originally Posted by mountainxtc

When you say you are skiing at intermediate level, does that mean you are comfortably parallel or do you struggle to initiate a parallel turn?

The mechanics of turn initiation will change slightly depending on whether you are making a skidded or a carved turn. But I will say this: the turning effort must start at the feet.

I am very comfortable parallel skiing, but I honestly can't tell you how I initiate a turn. I know that I muscle the turn a lot because late in the day, I can feel the fatigue in my legs when I try to turn though they aren't bothering me otherwise. And this is one of the reasons I want so badly to learn to turn correctly. Legs that are too tired to turn are a liability on the slopes -- and should find a comfy place in the lodge.

I should be skiing tomorrow and Tuesday. I'm printing your instructions and taking it with me! In a group lesson this week, we did pivot slips and I learned to do "falling leaf". This should all fit together well for practice on the slopes.

[PNWSkier]

Thank you mountainxtc for that great explanation!

I understood what was meant by "roll your ankles" by doing side slips. With that said, I do suffer from wanting to start the next turn too soon and when I do wait, what a difference! I just need to make that part of my routine.

[deannatoby]

Originally Posted by mountainxtc

once you are comfortable with this move, go to flat terrain on a green run. begin skiing across the hill and try this move to flatten your skis with a little momentum. one your skis are flat, stop moving and do nothing while you balance on the flat ski. wait until your skis are pointing straight down the hill before you stop.

This didn't make sense to me, but I think it just hit me. When you said "stop moving" I thought you meant come to a halt. But then you can't go into the turn, so you mean stop shifting weight back and forth and just balance while your momentum continues to propel you forward? Also, when I stop with my skis downhill, does that mean I do the pizza/V kind of stop? Once the skis are downhill I know they'll want to keep doing. I don't finish the turn and just do something to stop? I can do the parallel stopping but I'm wondering if stopping that way would screw up the feeling of what I'm learning on the flat skis, etc.

I really appreciate this info. Your post instructions make very good sense and are easy to visualize--what a great teacher! I was going to start a post on turns tonight, but now I can just ask my question here. My legs are always killing me after I ski, but I think the main reason is because I'm trying to slow down to stick with my kids. Last night my 5yo and I had time alone to spend skiing together (so wonderful!) but since I naturally go so much faster than him I HAVE to at every turn dig my skis into the turn as hard as I can to slow myself down. I dig HARD and make really sharp turns. I have no idea about any of my technique in the turns, but I know my skis are pretty parallel. I'd like to have a Mom alone ski time soon, and I'm sure I will, but is digging in my turns killing my thighs, and is there another way to keep me slowed down so I won't fly past the kids?

BTW, I've never had a lesson, but chaperoned my kids' lessons last year and they stayed pretty basic as we were in a beginners class with kids as little as 4 yo. I hope to have a lesson of my own this year, and the kids' lessons this year will also be more helpful (chaperoning again).

[vickie]

Originally Posted by deannatoby

I have no idea about any of my technique in the turns, but I know my skis are pretty parallel. I'd like to have a Mom alone ski time soon, and I'm sure I will, but is digging in my turns killing my thighs, and is there another way to keep me slowed down so I won't fly past the kids?

I suspect you are exerting a lot of effort in turning AND slowing down, as I do. A Z-shaped turn, for the most part, simply turns us around. Then we're headed in the other direction, still going faster than we want! We then resort to whatever tactics we know will slow us down.

When we learn to make those C-shaped turns, we can turn AND slow down all in one fluid movement. We can stay in that "C" for as long as we need (just as a cursive "C" has a longer tail and flows into the next letter) and naturally slow down, without effort. Once our skis are pointing slightly uphill (the long tail of the "C"), we will slow down.

Maybe one time when your kids are in a lesson, you can get a private lesson specifically on carving turns. The information I'm getting here is helping a lot, but there are things I'm doing wrong (i.e., tip lead) that will only be identified and corrected in-person.

[mountainxtc]

Originally Posted by deannatoby

This didn't make sense to me, but I think it just hit me. When you said "stop moving" I thought you meant come to a halt. But then you can't go into the turn, so you mean stop shifting weight back and forth and just balance while your momentum continues to propel you forward? Also, when I stop with my skis downhill, does that mean I do the pizza/V kind of stop? Once the skis are downhill I know they'll want to keep doing. I don't finish the turn and just do something to stop? I can do the parallel stopping but I'm wondering if stopping that way would screw up the feeling of what I'm learning on the flat skis, etc.

ahh, my description is obviously terrible!! sorry, teaching skiing via the internet is a learning curve for me!! when I said "stop moving" I didn't mean come to a halt, I meant stop making further movements with your body, your skis will still be sliding. The idea is that you see how the sidecut of the skis helps you to start turning.

after your skis have pointed themselves down the hill, you can stop any way (preferably across the hill). you can hockey stop, or complete the turn, the object of the exercise being to focus on the turn initiation.

Originally Posted by deannatoby

I really appreciate this info. Your post instructions make very good sense and are easy to visualize--what a great teacher!

Obviously not that great! I can see that my post conjured up some very strange interpretations!!! hopefully all is straightened out now...

Originally Posted by deannatoby

I was going to start a post on turns tonight, but now I can just ask my question here. My legs are always killing me after I ski

99% of the time, pain in the quads is caused by being in the back seat. move your hips forward and save those poor legs!

[whitewater girl]

Originally Posted by vickie

[Puh-leeze don't say "roll your ankles" ... that's the one that makes my brain hurt! I can't even imagine my ankle rolling after all the trouble I've gone to to get it seated securely in my boot.]

probably don't want to hear this, but...if the thought of rolling your ankles makes your brain hurt, maybe your boots aren't sized/fitted right? When I finally got boot that really fit, leading with the ankles/feet quickly became second nature - before that, it was pretty much impossible (can't lead with the ankles/feet when your foot is slipping in your boot...or your boot cranked down so tight you have next to NO ability to move that joint!)

[Skisailor]

What's wrong with tip lead??

I understand that it may not always be desirable (when skiing bumps, for example), but I thought it was perfectly acceptable for doing carved turns on groomed slopes. Is that not the case???

Also - I subscribe to the "there is no one right way" to make a ski turn.

Having most of your weight on the downhill ski with the uphill ski along for the ride is an older technique. And I see that two footedness is all the rage these days. But there are some really wonderful aspects to that older style - one of them being that it works! And that it creates almost effortless turns. And it is extremely easy on your legs because you are essentially "walking" down the mountain and giving your uphill leg a mini "break" during each turn.

It may not be a technique you want for every situation (powder and crud come to mind) but it's great tool to have in your technique tool box, in my opinion.