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Technique question for firm groomers

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Slowing down is all about turn shape. That looked good. Use the hill/gravity to slow you down. Make "Ss" or at least C's. As you turn back up hill you slow down.

Thanks. I posted this last week after some free skiing. Yesterday in the lesson, we worked a lot on how to slow down in a narrow corridor. I think Ss and Cs would be tricky - or require a lot of effort my knee might not love - in a narrow corridor. Say 2-3 cat tracks wide. I want to stay in a narrow corridor to minimize risk of a yahoo colliding with me if I'm skiing slowly. But I can play with it.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I do not want to encourage you guys, but I just looked at the Vivas, and they are not *that* skinny. They looked very skinny leaned up against DH's 125mm Fat-ypuses.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
It's maintaining the steering effort. And it can be done with smeared turns too. The big thing is to trust the shape of the turn and not put the brakes on to make a Z.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
It's maintaining the steering effort. And it can be done with smeared turns too. The big thing is to trust the shape of the turn and not put the brakes on to make a Z.
Yes. Trust is hard for me. Relatively speaking, I'm sure.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
One way to slow down on ice....and I mean blue ice, is to "finish" your turn. Steer them uphill and eventually physics and gravity take over. You will slow down. You can't edge on ice, so smear away, but maintain control by turning em uphill.

I'm confused. If you can't edge, how do you ski? If you can't lean into the edge, doesn't the ski just slip all over?

Signed,

Afraid of ice on the hill
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I'm confused. If you can't edge, how do you ski? If you can't lean into the edge, doesn't the ski just slip all over?

Signed,

Afraid of ice on the hill

Do you mean that you don't understand not-edging on ice specifically, or in all conditions?
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Oops. On ice. That's what
I get for posting at bedtime.

So, I'm no expert on this, but I'm picturing a lesson a few years ago. There's a run that gets pretty scraped off, and none of us had sharpened edges. Instructor Dirk said that if you can't get your edge in, you might as well glide on the flats of your skis. I, horrified, said, "But what if I slide??" He said, "Yeah, what if you slide?"

I believe @Ursula said something similar at our lesson at Big Sky.

So part of the trick if you can't bite your edges in is that you have to be willing to ride it a little and trust your body. But in order to do this without falling on your @$$, you need to be in balance both fore/aft and laterally.

Which I guess comes full circle to my original question, LOL. "The answer was in you all along!"

But maybe Jilly and others will come through and clarify/correct.
 

nopoleskier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
If there's some snow around YES ski flat over the ice until you get to the snow to Turn...
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
Exactly that. You can't edge on ice, so flatten the skis and ride it out. Even a flat ski is going to create friction against the ice. So if you steer the skis into a complete turn, the skis will point uphill and gravity will slow you down.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think it must be the case that a sufficiently sharpened edge, applied with sufficient skill and strength, *will* bite. Otherwise ski racers wouldn't be able to do what they do. But for mortal skiers who are presumably not on freshly tuned race skis with race edge angles and race-ready legs, sliding is sometimes necessary.

Even a flat ski is going to create friction against the ice.

Technically, a flat ski will create more friction than an edge. The edge is intended to reduce friction. This is why you cut a steak with a sharp knife and not with a spoon.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Oh, I took out the Santa Anas yesterday. I brought The Ski in for a tune, so it was either the Santa Anas or the carvers, and it had been snowing hard all day.

Funny how, after skiing a narrower and softer ski, and with my knee stuff, the Santa Anas felt "planky" for the first couple of runs. But while they were less forgiving in terms of turning, they were far more forgiving in terms of sliding through chop. They just didn't care. The Ski would have given me a lot more feedback.

So, maybe not everyone would agree with this decision, but I decided that what with the poor visibility, the number of not-advanced skiers on blue groomers, and my mental issues with skiing slowly on wide-open runs (I tend to get lazy and get going real fast), I would take advantage of the lift-line bumps. The lift line under the Mercury always builds up bumps in a predictable fashion. The top-most section is fairly bumped up, but each lower section gets progressively less bumpy (because it's less steep). I say "sections" because it is criss-crossed by a few groomers and cat tracks, making it easy to jump in and out. After getting the Santa Anas dialed as well as I could (my right knee still doesn't like bending as much as it should for a proper turn, and a stiffer ski made it that much harder), I went to the lowest section and skied that, very slowly, working on the techniques from the previous day's lesson. Then starting from the next one up, etc. I think I did the entire lift line three times before calling it quits. I find it easy to stay slow in the bumps, because you have so many options to slow you down, especially when they're covered in fluff. I didn't ever think that I was risking a fall or a sudden movement. I would not recommend this for people rehabbing their knee who haven't already spent a lot of time on bumps.

I like lift line bumps because they narrow down my choices, and they are usually cut by pretty good skiers (mostly the only people who ski the lift line bumps are people who are justifiably proud of their technique. Then there's me. I just don't care if the people on the lift see me poking along).

With The Ski, I could tell my right foot wasn't always tracking in the turn, but wasn't sure if it might be a canting issue. With the Santa Ana and in the bumps, I became confident that it's because of compensation. My right leg just isn't "listening" as well. Also, if I do focus, it hurts to bend as far as I'd like. The Ace bandage also adds a small amount of resistance, making it more tempting to keep my leg straight. So on all terrain, groomers and bumps, I end up in sort of a "bracing" stance, and actually I do the same thing, to a lesser extent, even when my left leg is downhill. Ah well. I worked a lot on the "keep the body facing down the hill while the skis criss cross" thing that both Pete and Ursula had me working on. Also using the bump surfaces to control speed.

Anyway, it was good stuff. I will probably stick to The Ski for "normal" days. I'm not sure if I would have been better off with it instead of the Santa Ana yesterday. And oddly, skiing on the Santa Ana gave me 1) confidence that I can ski another ski without getting too messed up and 2) realization that my favorite skis from the past may not work for me now the way that I'm used to - so I'm more likely to get on the Vivas for my next groomer day. Win for everyone!
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Very cool observations! Regardless, you have the skills to ski ANY ski, so remember that! And I'm telling you, I had zero, ZERO issues with the Vivas when I owned them, and I was a FAR less skilled skier than I am now. I'm honestly regretting selling them. I think I'd love to get out on them again and work on turn shapes and carving, even though they felt a tad short for me.
 

snow addict

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think it must be the case that a sufficiently sharpened edge, applied with sufficient skill and strength, *will* bite. Otherwise ski racers wouldn't be able to do what they do. But for mortal skiers who are presumably not on freshly tuned race skis with race edge angles and race-ready legs, sliding is sometimes necessary.



Technically, a flat ski will create more friction than an edge. The edge is intended to reduce friction. This is why you cut a steak with a sharp knife and not with a spoon.
Not really, the force of friction will be directly proportional to the applied load and independent of the contact area. Cutting steak has nothing to do with friction, you can cut steak because the smaller surface of a sharp knife will exert higher kinetic force in a concentrated area.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Not really, the force of friction will be directly proportional to the applied load and independent of the contact area. Cutting steak has nothing to do with friction, you can cut steak because the smaller surface of a sharp knife will exert higher kinetic force in a concentrated area.

How about the friction of a flattened ptex (or whatever) base vs a sharpened edge?
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
According to Bags, guiding a flat ski on ice is the way to go. The problem is, if you lean up the hill or are not centered, your skis will get away from you. So balance is the issue, not edging.

I keep having this issue on one particular spot - you'll know it - just above the top of Briar Rose, coming from the Mercury. That spot is always slick, even in the morning. I hit the spot and my skis slide out, throwing me backwards, although I think it's actually my skis getting out ahead of me. Every time it happens, I think, "Argh, next time, get forward!" ... but it's just such a disorienting feeling.
 

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