Technique question for firm groomers

[Skisailor]

This!! Use the slope of the hill to decrease your speed. Turn shape is what controls your speed, not breaking. And when you add in a carve turn it's heaven. Also I found the wider ski on the groomers torqued the knees a little. My tuned down race skis don't do that.

I'm not sure about this "leg rotation" as it relates to our CSIA terminology. I think we call it counter rotation. Where the face/upper body is looking downhill, but the skis are travelling across the hill. @Skisailor is that correct?

In PSIA world, leg rotation simply refers to our ability to turn our femurs in our hip sockets. Pelvis belongs to the upper body. Legs to the lower body. It commonly results in counter rotation but it could also mean the legs are simply rotating faster than the upper body is turning.

In short radius turns it does mean that shoulders and hips are facing downhill while legs turn underneath. But in longer radius turns we don't face straight down the hill. We might only be 10 or 20 degrees off our ski tips. But that means the legs turn more than the upper body! Hence - leg rotation.

 

[Jilly]

CSIA just calls it counter-rotation. Amount depends as you state. Thought it was different terminology for the same thing.

 

[Ursula]

Just a quick reply. As usual - don't have a lot of time .
For injured / and recovering knees I do recommend NOT to ski on wide (under foot) skis. At least not if you are skiing on groomers. You will get a "side load" on the knee that will be very uncomfortable. I created a picture to illustrate what I mean.



If your ski is a lot wider than you base of your ski boot, you will create, what I call the problem zone in my picture. There will be a "air gap" (light red triangle) between your edge that has snow contact and the "force line" of your weight coming through your legs / foot towards the ground. The ski wants to do what the green arrow illustrates. But you and your knee as the major joint here, have to stay on the edge......
If you ski with a narrower ski, where the "force line" lines up perfectly with the contact point of your edge in the snow, you wont get the torque on your knee.

The wider skis wont have that problem in deep snow, because you are in "three dimensional" snow and there will be SNOW under your skis and NOT AIR.

Bottom line for groomers - my opinion - don't use your 90 mm (under foot) or wider skis. 75 mm - 85 mm is plenty!

Hope this explanation helps.
Ursula

 

[santacruz skier]

I love this thread! Lots of useful information, and it just so happens to be pertinent to what I am working on right now!
On that note, I pulled out my Kastle LX82s today, since my Kenjas are kind of skiing me this season, at my new lighter weight. Boy, a full-camber, softer ski is a real hoot! The tails on the Kastles won't let me cheat at the ends of my turns. I'm going to ski them a LOT more to work on my skills.

Leg sleeves are better known as leg warmers. I wear them mountain biking sometimes.

Those are super cute. Years ago (I still have) capri length bike pants and would wear boring black smart wool leg warmers......

 

[bounceswoosh]

Bottom line for groomers - my opinion - don't use your 90 mm (under foot) or wider skis. 75 mm - 85 mm is plenty!

Thanks for your thoughts, Ursula. My 89 is forgiving, and I don't have a 75-85mm forgiving ski. I'm just going to have to risk that 4mm. Most of the days I've skied so far have had some fluff and have not been hardpack.

 

[Jilly]

Thank you Ursula! I've being saying this about the wide skis...90+. There is even a study published on it. Soft snow...no problem!

 

[santacruz skier]

Thank you @Ursula for taking the time to post on the forum. You are a plethora of information, and I'd love to take a lesson from you. This comes from someone who has been skiing many, many years but has not had a lesson in decades... yikes you would have work to do!

 

[bounceswoosh]

Thank you @Ursula for taking the time to post on the forum. You are a plethora of information, and I'd love to take a lesson from you. This comes from someone who has been skiing many, many years but has not had a lesson in decades... yikes you would have work to do!

You keep saying this! Maybe your new years resolution should be to take a lesson ...... I bet at this point it's been so long that it feels intimidating. You may have to force yourself. And when you do, get a recommendation so that you're sure it's a good instructor.

 

[santacruz skier]

You keep saying this! Maybe your new years resolution should be to take a lesson ...... I bet at this point it's been so long that it feels intimidating. You may have to force yourself. And when you do, get a recommendation so that you're sure it's a good instructor.

Yeah, I'll have to talk to @SnowHot at Northstar and see who she recommends.... It doesn't feel intimidating..... I'm totally open to criticism... I did ski a few years ago with a ski instructor PSIA level 2 on a trip to Whistler. When I asked her to critique my skiing, all she really said was to face down the hill and look ahead more...... Then we met up and skied @ Heavenly in Tahoe as she lives near there, and she said "oh I didn't realize you were such a good skier." Whatever that meant, was I not so good in Whistler? Maybe..
Ok, now it sounds like I'm defending myself....
Note to Self: Take a lesson.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Thanks for your thoughts, Ursula. My 89 is forgiving, and I don't have a 75-85mm forgiving ski. I'm just going to have to risk that 4mm. Most of the days I've skied so far have had some fluff and have not been hardpack.

@Ursula to be honest - I have those Vivas. They are legit carvers, and as you said (I think it was you among others, sorry, I'm on my phone) , carving isn't ideal for me right now. I'm honestly afraid of getting on a carver and having it hook up. I borrowed carvers a few times last season, and they weren't these skis, but I didn't take to them easily. So there I am. The skis I'm on are 89, but they ski like an old houseshoe - just comfortable. I never worry about them being too responsive or forcing me to do anything.

 

[vanhoskier]

Even my SL skis, at 66mm underfoot, can torque my knee after using them for hours because they "encourage" higher edge angles. My mellower ski at 82mm underfoot doesn't create knee issues for me because I'm skiing it much less aggressively in terms of angulation.

 

[SkiBam]

CSIA just calls it counter-rotation. Amount depends as you state. Thought it was different terminology for the same thing.

I think what PSIA calls "rotation" is what we call "steering." And I think that "counter-rotation" refers to facing the upper body down the hill - ie. lower body is turning one way, while upper body turns the other. I think...

 

[Ursula]

Even my SL skis, at 66mm underfoot, can torque my knee after using them for hours because they "encourage" higher edge angles. My mellower ski at 82mm underfoot doesn't create knee issues for me because I'm skiing it much less aggressively in terms of angulation.

To edge or not to edge ..... the "attitude" question.
Yes, certainly it is easier to carve with a 66 mm under foot ski compared to a ski that is 90 mm under foot. But we can still ski "slip slidy" with that same narrow carver. When I came back from knee surgery, I was the whole season on a ski with 78 mm under foot. I didn't want to get caught with anything wider on a groomed run.
That said, I still would recommend a narrower ski and then reign in the urge to carve.

I think what PSIA calls "rotation" is what we call "steering." And I think that "counter-rotation" refers to facing the upper body down the hill - ie. lower body is turning one way, while upper body turns the other. I think...

Yes, we have had the talk about rotation versus steering before. PSIA uses the " Rotary Skill" for describing the skill of turning the femur in the hip-socket underneath a stable upper body. As the "tell-all" skill test, we use the pivot slip where the line of travel will be straight down hill with no travel across the hill.
The "steering" then would be the blending of rotation with the amount of edging throughout the turn that will give us the outcome of the turn we would like. We also could say: With only rotation and pivot slips: Gravity is in charge of your line of descent. With only edging and carving: your ski is in charge of your line of descent. With blending those two skills: YOU are in charge of line of descent.

 

[volklgirl]

="Ursula, post: 334715, member: 4301"We also could say: With only rotation and pivot slips: Gravity is in charge of your line of descent. With only edging and carving: your ski is in charge of your line of descent. With blending those two skills: YOU are in charge of line of descent.

Love this so very much!

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

Love this so very much!

Me too! @Ursula Thank you! That is a gem of a description! I am still working on my blending! ;) Will be working on it for a while...

 

[bounceswoosh]

With only rotation and pivot slips: Gravity is in charge of your line of descent. With only edging and carving: your ski is in charge of your line of descent. With blending those two skills: YOU are in charge of line of descent.

Me, three!

(Now I want to start singing Ebony and Ivory ... lol ...)

 

[tinymoose]

Question... don't most skiers generally do some mix of carving/steering (and I don't mean your average a couple times a year skier)? I mean, even when I try to purely carve (I don't), I assume I'm still probably steering some b/c I'm a mere mortal.

Even though my skis be short and my turn radius small... I still often force my skis into turns shorter than their given radius, which necessitates steering. And this becomes even more true the steeper it gets (speed control).

 

[snow addict]

I think you need to take a 2-3 hours one-on-one entirely dedicated to piste technique. You have been of fat skis for too long and probably switched to them a little early like many, you went ahead in your skiing but quite possibly left some technical gaps. This is perfect time to fix it. Have somebody look at you, see what you are doing and then show what you need to be doing instead, if there is indeed something wrong. A good instructor should be able to pick it. And I agree that you should take your Vivas out. This is what you bought them for. A technique lesson will also address your concern of catching an edge. You shouldn't be so hesitant to ski a groomer ski on groomers. If you question it, get a lesson. Short turn execution is where we all get caught.

 

[contesstant]

I do agree that you should hop on the Vivas. I had zero issues skiing them as a solid intermediate. I did not find them demanding or scary at ALL. In fact, I'm somewhat regretting selling them even though I felt they were "too short". I could have learned a lot from skiing them on groomers, more SLOWLY. I started to enjoy the stability of longer skis at speed, but I do feel that the speed was covering up a lot of technique issues. If I recall, they are a fairly damp ski?? I remember thinking they were smooth and didn't get deflected very easily.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

Question... don't most skiers generally do some mix of carving/steering (and I don't mean your average a couple times a year skier)? I mean, even when I try to purely carve (I don't), I assume I'm still probably steering some b/c I'm a mere mortal.

Even though my skis be short and my turn radius small... I still often force my skis into turns shorter than their given radius, which necessitates steering. And this becomes even more true the steeper it gets (speed control).

Yes, I think that is the case. I think the mix of steering and carving was what @Ursula referred to as blending. I think unless one is in a lesson doing railroad tracks drill or pivot slips one is blending steering and carving at various proportions according to terrain/conditions etc. That is my understanding anyway.