Technique question for firm groomers

[bounceswoosh]

Wouldn't that be sweet!! demo boots!!

There's a backcountry store in Breck that demos boots - but they're all AT boots for Dynafit bindings.

 

[jellyflake]

How do you experience the true turn radius of the ski and also manage to ski slowly? That seems like a contradiction to me ... unless on a green, which can work, but it's tricky with all the obstacles ... I mean, beginners .... in the way.

Hm, yes, it is tricky!
What I have done in lessons is:
Start with crossing the run (of course pay attention to potential obstacles and only start your exercise when there is no traffic) and bend both your knees towards the mountain. Really slow. Don't force the ski into any direction but just follow the slowly carved turn.
Do it both directions.
Then start a bit more into fall line but still without crossing the fall line.
Eventually you start into the fall line. Still just one (half) turn at the time.

Then back to green runs to daisy chain those single turns. Once that works there, go back to steeper terrain.

I don't know the runs at Breck so cannot tell whether the Breck blue runs can be used for this type of exercise. But usually this would even work in steeper terrain. Often people seem to find it easier to edge/carve when it is a bit steeper.

PS When your talk to your knee again: best regards

 

[bounceswoosh]

@jellyflake - I had to laugh at your post because -

1) start your exercise with no traffic - Breck is the most visited resort in the country, so, nope ;-)
2) Breck blue runs are infamous for being mellow. People from other Colorado areas laugh at what Breck calls blues!

Despite my reaction, I actually have done drills like this. It is very very very very very very hard for me to just let that turn develop without "helping." You're absolutely right that this is a basic carving drill I can work on.

Because I don't trust people, I get really antsy about using more than a small corridor of the trail. But now that the winter break is over, there will be a lot less traffic on the slopes.

Thanks for the kind message to my knee =)

 

[bounceswoosh]

Although now that I think about it, in the last few years, they always had me start the carving drill headed down the fall line ... not starting in a traverse.

 

[vanhoskier]

Although now that I think about it, in the last few years, they always had me start the carving drill headed down the fall line ... not starting in a traverse.

In clinics, we do the carving drill in a traverse as explained above. You are doing nothing but putting both skis on edge and letting them carve at their turn radius. Look back at your tracks to see if you indeed made those nice railroad tracks :-)

 

[contesstant]

Yes to keeping that knee warm! I wear a neoprene sleeve on my busted knee, over my base layer. It does get sweaty, but I think that's good for it, because I know it's staying warm. On the other knee, I double over some Smartwool "leg sleeves". Keeping the knees warm makes them feel so much better.

 

[Powgirl]

What are leg sleeves?

 

[bounceswoosh]

What are leg sleeves?

Actually I just realized I have the same question!

 

[bounceswoosh]

In clinics, we do the carving drill in a traverse as explained above. You are doing nothing but putting both skis on edge and letting them carve at their turn radius. Look back at your tracks to see if you indeed made those nice railroad tracks :-)

Yes! I am familiar with the drill. This is one of those many things I need to work on, but they're frustrating, so usually I just run away instead. I'll be skiing Friday, and the holiday crowds won't be there, so it will be a good time to play with this. Unfortunately I only get 4-6 runs before my knee complains, and it will be very cold Friday, so maybe closer to four. There's the first run, when my knee hurts but starts loosening up. Then there's the second run, when I find out if my knee is going to keep hurting or if it's a good day. Then the third run, that's when I go to a blue to have a little fun. Then another run and back to the bottom. I thought I'd be bored enough to force myself to do the hated drills in these early days ... but with so few runs, I don't have time to be bored before my knee says stop!

 

[Skisailor]

To force a ski to a smaller-than-construction-radius non-smeared but carved turn you need quite some power and speed would help.

Totally agree. We do have a limited ability to tighten the radius of our ski's designed arc by using our weight plus big G forces (think speed) to max bend it.

But carving blue runs at slow speed?? Not sure how one can accomplish that. It seems like a contradiction to me. We can manage our overall rate of descent with turn shape, but riding the edges along the arc of the ski's designed turning radius on a blue pitch will mean you are moving over the snow pretty darn fast!

I wouldn't want you to risk a fall at those speeds until your knee is feeling better!

 

[bounceswoosh]

I wouldn't want you to risk a fall at those speeds until your knee is feeling better!

Me, neither! That's why I started this thread - I'm not so much interested in carving as in speed control, and I was hoping to accomplish that using short radius turns, because blue slopes are crowded enough that I don't like going wide.

We do have a limited ability to tighten the radius of our ski's designed arc by using our weight plus big G forces (think speed) to max bend it.

I got into a bit of an argument with my husband today about this, because he said of course you can tighten the turn radius without having to skid - that the TR is a multiplier, and you just have to be skilled enough to bend the ski. After some back and forth, in which I pointed out that I personally am not a competitive slalom skier with quads to match, he said that to him, skill is the same as strength .... anyway, I think he finally came around to agreeing that while it is possible to do a pure carve at a tighter TR than the sidecut of the ski, it might not be possible for *me* to do that to any great degree. Which, like, I thought that was the point of the conversation ...

But, again, carving at speed is not the goal here! Skiing well at slow speeds on groomers is the goal, which in turn I think will help me all over the mountain. As @jellyflake said, skiing slow is harder than skiing fast.

I feel like the whole "ski the fast line slow" thing is relevant here, but I never did understand it despite many attempts, and I suspect it's a more dynamic movement than I'd be comfortable with just yet.

BUT HEY! I went to yoga today, and I was surprised by some of what my knee was willing to do. I was able to do hero pose a lot lower than I expected, with a block in the middle position and a blanket under my knee. Hot yoga helps with mobility, but still. Frog squat, on the other hand - I was able to do it, but there was a lot of pressure in my knee, and I just didn't think it was worth holding it and finding out if it was good or bad.

@Skisailor , how is your leg doing these days? Is it back to full function? Did you find that you had to fight for confidence, or was it just there for you?

 

[Skisailor]

Me, neither! That's why I started this thread - I'm not so much interested in carving as in speed control, and I was hoping to accomplish that using short radius turns, because blue slopes are crowded enough that I don't like going wide.



I got into a bit of an argument with my husband today about this, because he said of course you can tighten the turn radius without having to skid - that the TR is a multiplier, and you just have to be skilled enough to bend the ski. After some back and forth, in which I pointed out that I personally am not a competitive slalom skier with quads to match, he said that to him, skill is the same as strength .... anyway, I think he finally came around to agreeing that while it is possible to do a pure carve at a tighter TR than the sidecut of the ski, it might not be possible for *me* to do that to any great degree. Which, like, I thought that was the point of the conversation ...

But, again, carving at speed is not the goal here! Skiing well at slow speeds on groomers is the goal, which in turn I think will help me all over the mountain. As @jellyflake said, skiing slow is harder than skiing fast.

I feel like the whole "ski the fast line slow" thing is relevant here, but I never did understand it despite many attempts, and I suspect it's a more dynamic movement than I'd be comfortable with just yet.

BUT HEY! I went to yoga today, and I was surprised by some of what my knee was willing to do. I was able to do hero pose a lot lower than I expected, with a block in the middle position and a blanket under my knee. Hot yoga helps with mobility, but still. Frog squat, on the other hand - I was able to do it, but there was a lot of pressure in my knee, and I just didn't think it was worth holding it and finding out if it was good or bad.

@Skisailor , how is your leg doing these days? Is it back to full function? Did you find that you had to fight for confidence, or was it just there for you?

We all should be able to bend our skis by committing our weight over that ski. But unless you are a race trained Amazon, the effect on the turning radius will still be limited. We can accomplish much more in the turning department with much less effort by simply adding leg rotation to the turn.

I have to chuckle sometimes at the way leg rotation (the skill that truly opens up the mountain to us) seems to be the poor bastard child and carving is held up as the pinnacle of ski technique. So much so that some skiers don't seem to want to acknowledge that they are indeed blending leg rotation into their turns. The phrase "brushed carving" comes to mind. Lol! You are either carving or you are not. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

Thanks for asking about my ankle. I had 2 breaks plus lots of ligament damage. For me it was a backwards process. When I made the first few runs on the new ankle it felt like nothing had changed. I was ecstatic. But as the season wore on, I discovered more and more limitations. The good news is - this 2nd season it really seems like it's back to 95% of normal. Good enough for skiing!

 

[heather matthews]

Surely whether you can carve the ski at a radius less than it's stated turn radius is a combination of where your centre of mass is relative to the outside skis edge, how much mass there is, how soft the ski is longitudinally, how tortionally stiff it is, how sharp the edges are, how grippy the snow is, the skis edge and base angles etc etc.Simply tipping them on edge and doing a park and ride is fun but it isn't carving.It is a stepping stone but it isn't a dynamic process where you load the ski.

 

[Powgirl]

Sorry to hijack...SkiSailor...I worked on leg rotation in Steamboat last week...wow, did it ever change my game!

 

[heather matthews]

And I think ski sailor is right, a slow speed carve would be very challenging. Short radius skidded turns would work though.

 

[jellyflake]

Although now that I think about it, in the last few years, they always had me start the carving drill headed down the fall line ... not starting in a traverse.

When you start in fall line it is much harder. Or, the other way around, when you start in crossing then it is much easier. Why? Because you already stand on your edges when you start moving. The drill is then not to edge from zero edging (like it would be when you start in fall line) but the drill is to feel and experience the right amount of edging.
This is to not fall towards the mountain and to not start drifting.
I personally think that this exercise is really good at any level of skiing. Even if you are not keen on becoming a carving expert. But this exercise helps you to get a very good feeling for edging and "how much is not enough or too much".
Slower is harder.
And eventually chaining one turn after the other on easy runs - skis flat, then edging to one side, allow the skis time to make the turn, skis flat again, then edging to the other side, again patience to have the turn skied - will give you a very good timing to use (or avoid!) the edges.

One more comment: even if you don't carve but if you smear/ skid then slow speed is a lot harder than doing it fast. You need to be very exact, you need the timing very right to skid a proper turn evenly.
Speed always helps with cheating.... ;)

 

[contesstant]

I love this thread! Lots of useful information, and it just so happens to be pertinent to what I am working on right now!
On that note, I pulled out my Kastle LX82s today, since my Kenjas are kind of skiing me this season, at my new lighter weight. Boy, a full-camber, softer ski is a real hoot! The tails on the Kastles won't let me cheat at the ends of my turns. I'm going to ski them a LOT more to work on my skills.

Leg sleeves are better known as leg warmers. I wear them mountain biking sometimes.

 

[vanhoskier]

I was working on all of this above yesterday....on my slalom skis in the AM, and my Kastles in the PM. Definitely more work, even on the softer Kastle, to get it into a shorter radius turn at slower speeds on steeper stuff. That's where I can feel my technique fall apart a bit.

@bounceswoosh I wouldn't worry so much about carving with your knee. Keeping your edges a bit flatter with more skidded turns won't aggravate it as much. Just work on shaping your turns more (easier to do with skidded turns) and treat your knee more kindly. Years after knee surgery, when I spend all day carving a lot, I still get a bit creaky feeling in that knee.

 

[Jilly]

@bounceswoosh I wouldn't worry so much about carving with your knee. Keeping your edges a bit flatter with more skidded turns won't aggravate it as much. Just work on shaping your turns more (easier to do with skidded turns) and treat your knee more kindly. Years after knee surgery, when I spend all day carving a lot, I still get a bit creaky feeling in that knee.

This!! Use the slope of the hill to decrease your speed. Turn shape is what controls your speed, not breaking. And when you add in a carve turn it's heaven. Also I found the wider ski on the groomers torqued the knees a little. My tuned down race skis don't do that.

I'm not sure about this "leg rotation" as it relates to our CSIA terminology. I think we call it counter rotation. Where the face/upper body is looking downhill, but the skis are travelling across the hill. @Skisailor is that correct?

 

[marzNC]

I love this thread! Lots of useful information, and it just so happens to be pertinent to what I am working on right now!
On that note, I pulled out my Kastle LX82s today, since my Kenjas are kind of skiing me this season, at my new lighter weight. Boy, a full-camber, softer ski is a real hoot! The tails on the Kastles won't let me cheat at the ends of my turns. I'm going to ski them a LOT more to work on my skills.

Leg sleeves are better known as leg warmers. I wear them mountain biking sometimes.

I used leg warmers after rehabbing a knee. Not that often while skiing unless it was really cold. But did feel good to have it over the recovering leg for a few hours after skiing.