Survey on Sexual Harassment in the Outdoors & Outdoor Industry

[Kimmyt]

I guess I was harrassed once while skiing? But I don't actually think of it as harrassment, more as good natured catcalling that was kind of sweet if thats possible. I was skiing at A Basin on Mother's day several years ago and it was sunny and warm so I took a lap (with a few others, including guys sans shirts) in a bikini top and my ski pants. Someone awkwardly called down from the lift 'You look good for a mom uhm I mean if you're a mom happy mother's day!' I think they meant to say that they assumed I was a mom but that I was in shape? And then realized that I might not be one but couldn't backtrack? I don't know it was weird, but I had just had a stillbirth so while it made me sad because it just drove home that I was not a mom/but still kind of a mom it also kind of made me happy because it made me realize my body had healed a bit. It was a whole weird thing of emotions but I absolutely didn't rage at the guy that said it and usually I am all about raging at people that catcall (been catcalled once or twice while running).

 

[contesstant]

God, I'm sorry, that's terrible.

It did remind me of this essay, which, even though the content is obviously a bummer, I've always thought was quite good:
https://www.alicebradley.net/blog/on-being-an-object-and-then-not-being-an-object.html

Good read. Thanks. I guess I should consider myself lucky that I've not witnessed someone masturbating on public transit? WT actual F?!
I will say, I do get catcalled at much less now, and I agree with her. It's so peaceful.

I sometimes ponder whether my size is a subconscious attempt to avoid having these sorts of experiences. I haven't been cat called in a long time. I think I'm pretty much invisible to the male gaze.

The prologue and first act of this This American Life episode is interesting - and demoralizing. A woman interviews the men who catcall, thinking she could convince them that women don't appreciate it and are even frightened by it - without much success. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/603/once-more-with-feeling

Must listen to later.
I just can't get over that men think this is "flattering" or acceptable? My dad didn't raise me that way. I guess I should be grateful.

 

[newboots]

I actually run outdoors in the early morning because I think that on the whole, there are fewer jerks outside being jerks at 5:30am.

Walking by construction sites was the worst place.
. . . .
It is definitely a problem for my very fit daughter. She's small to boot. She actually became afraid to run or bike in Tacoma.

Not just these posts. All of them. It's just so sad that we have to plan where/when to go jogging. Or walking. Or dressing to go to work.

I, too, am past the catcall stage, but I remember how crappy and scary it was. I also remember being in a checkout line in a liquor store with my then-15-year-old daughter. I couldn't understand why everyone was staring, until I realized . . . they weren't staring at me.

 

[geargrrl]

The follow to this is interesting, surprising, and not surprising depending how you filter.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2265261/dont-care-about-sexual-harassment-dont-read-outside

I will say they've come a long way from the Long John Girl ads. Back in the 80's when I worked for an outdoors manufacturer, I tracked this one company. Every single month there had a beautiful blonde wearing long johm shirt boyfriend style, provacatively posed, cleavage, some variation. I clipped it every month and put in on a board just to see that it was happening. Nice to see a change.

 

[CrystalRose]

I know I'm going to get some hate but.... I don't mind catcalling. I mean I don't LOVE it but it doesn't evoke anger. I totally think that it's cultural though. If it goes as far as following me then it's scary. Like that video of the woman walking down the street in New York.

The guy who followed her was doing way too much!! But yelling out "Good Morning Beautiful" isn't going to make me upset.

 

[newboots]

I won't hate you, @CrystalRose! I hated the cat-calling, though. It always happened when I was alone on a city street, going by a construction site or a group of guys/soldiers/show-offs. And then there was the time, walking to the dentist, that the guy wasn't whistling or calling but seemed to be asking directions from his car. On an empty industrial street on Saturday morning. I couldn't quite hear, so I took a few steps closer . . . yep, masturbating. I was terrified I'd be raped.

The worst thing in that video, aside from the guy following her (actually, walking next to her), was the relentlessness of it. Day, evening, near, far, polite, rude - they kept on trying to engage her. I was so tense through the whole thing.

Sometimes I like to wear clothes that show a little skin, and I'm in the mood to be noticed. At a party, dancing, maybe. But I don't want random strangers feeling free to say whatever they want to me, just because I have the nerve to walk (alone, "unclaimed") on the street. Thank God those days are over.

 

[Obrules15]

I know I'm going to get some hate but.... I don't mind catcalling. I mean I don't LOVE it but it doesn't evoke anger. I totally think that it's cultural though. If it goes as far as following me then it's scary. Like that video of the woman walking down the street in New York.

The guy who followed her was doing way too much!! But yelling out "Good Morning Beautiful" isn't going to make me upset.

It's funny how these things work. The worst that's ever happened to me was when I was 15 and in Sweden. At that time I was the only brown spot in a sea of blond and boy oh boy was I noticed and followed and catcalled. To add to it I didn't even understand the language and my host family (I was an exchange student) wouldn't translate because apparently what was being said was that bad.

 

[CrystalRose]

Agreed, the relentlessness of it in the video was a bit much. Even I would say enough at that point. Maybe because it doesn't happen that often to me I don't mind. People have told me I have "Resting B***h Face" (which is a real thing) so I think that keeps them at bay.

@newboots all of your examples were terrifying though! On a crowded street, getting a "How you doing?" or whatever is just ok. But I will say don't tell me to smile. I'm not here to amuse or appease you random stranger! You have no idea the day I've had or what is going on with me.

 

[Obrules15]

People have told me I have "Resting B***h Face" (which is a real thing) so I think that keeps them at bay.

This!

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

I don't think I've ever been cat called--even when I was younger, it was never something I ever experienced. I've always been thin (but I'm not a hot number) so I don't think weight has much to do with it. I just tend to not be that aware of other people so it could just be that I'm in my own bubble and would not have a clue if anyone ever looked twice--but I've been told I can give off a no nonsense vibe at times so that may scare them off.

 

[newboots]

@CrystalRose - To me, the demand to smile is just a part of it. They feel utterly free to comment on my ass, to "thank" me as if I were walking down the street for their pleasure, and to tell me to smile because, hey, this is for their pleasure, right? (dripping with sarcasm)

Wow, I can really get cranked up even though this doesn't happen to me any more!

I hate that it's confusing. As I said, sometimes I like to feel sexy and be noticed. But strangers on the street? I used to wonder, does that mean if I like to feel pretty or sexy, does that mean I deserve this? I took to dressing in slouchy pants and long flannel shirts (it was the early 70s, okay?). And left the city.

 

[Pequenita]

In my experience, resting b face is actually what exacerbates harassment.

 

[newboots]

The worst that's ever happened to me was when I was 15 and in Sweden. At that time I was the only brown spot in a sea of blond and boy oh boy was I noticed and followed and catcalled. To add to it I didn't even understand the language and my host family (I was an exchange student) wouldn't translate because apparently what was being said was that bad.

That must have been awful. To stand out so much and then have no way to know what they were saying! Ugh.

 

[SallyCat]

"Being middle aged renders you invisible to the kinds of creeps who dole out harassment, so you're mostly left alone. I'm really enjoying it. Not only do I not miss my youth, I am pleased to be rid of it."

I SO identify with this; I'm not just invisible to creeps, I feel mostly invisible to everyone. It's a bummer at work. But in the ski lodge I can crack a beer in the middle of the place and eat a sandwich without getting hassled by security (no outside food) because the security guys never see me. I can sit at a bar and chat with anyone without there being any "pick-up-ish" tension or subtext.

In my experience, resting b face is actually what exacerbates harassment.

Ugh, so much my experience. I have mega resting b**** face and when I was young I was pretty seriously depressed. Men were forever almost yelling at me in public to "SMILE!" I'd try, which just resulted in a sort of pained grimace and an attempt to move away from the man, which then resulted in some version of "What, you think you're too good for me!??" I remember it being confusing more than anything else, because I didn't have the vocabulary then to make sense of what was happening.

 

[Obrules15]

That must have been awful. To stand out so much and then have no way to know what they were saying! Ugh.

Mostly I was confounded. The energy didn't feel malignant and I didn't feel threatened (I was a student in a Detroit Public High School that had ended up in Beverly Hills Cop in the "Bad Detroit" part of the movie) so Swedish knuckleheads weren't that scary.

I just now made the distinction that how bothered I am does relate to what I feel like the intentions are. Sometimes it feels benign, where it feels like they are expressing appreciation. Sometimes it feels malignant and that is a really different situation. It might not make a difference to some but it feels really different to me.

 

[mustski]

I must be the anomaly. I just blew off the catcalls in my younger days; they never bothered me. I did grow up in a construction family. My dad was President of the Canadian construction association (or whatever the official name was) back in the late 60's and early 70's. I always just wrote it off as guy stuff; it didn't bug me. Likewise, when professors "sexually harassed" me. My thought was always- you are an A hole and I would just call it out. I never had any bad consequences. I do think we need to differentiate between physical threats and harassment though. They are NOT even in the same ballpark. One is an A hole and the other is a predator.

 

[Little Lightning]

I don't think age has much to do with it. A couple of years ago I was sexually harrassed at an outdoor concert in Dillon, Co. I was standing by myself waiting for my SO and this guy came up to me and said things I can't repeat. I was so flustered I didn't know what to do. I kept telling myself he was high so ignore him. In retrospect I should have gone to security. I was 67 at the time. Thought I was wayyyy beyond that kind of stuff but I guess it doesn't matter how old you are. As a young woman cat calls were common. In those days I wore shorts and a simple top. Nothing special but still got them.

 

[CrystalRose]

I just now made the distinction that how bothered I am does relate to what I feel like the intentions are. Sometimes it feels benign, where it feels like they are expressing appreciation. Sometimes it feels malignant and that is a really different situation. It might not make a difference to some but it feels really different to me.

You expressed what I meant to say. It's not ok but it's also not threatening (for me). It's mostly annoying and honestly sometimes funny (horrible pick up lines!).

The problem is you don't know the man's intentions and how far they'll push. It can quickly go from "How you doing?" to " Oh so you think you're too good to speak?!"

I just remembered an incident that happened last week walking back to my car. I was parallel parked and a car pulled up next to me. I thought they might have wanted my spot so I rolled down my window to tell them I was leaving. He says, "Hey do I know you from somewhere?" I just shook my head. He said some other flirtatious things and then drove off. That was slightly scary because he was blocking me in with his car and he could have easily turned hostile if I didn't play along. Ugh, the things women go through.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I can't remember ever being sexually harassed in an outdoor industry setting. There was one time when I was mountain biking, and a man followed right behind me for a loooong time without saying anything. He could have passed several times. I am slow. Real slow. I did find it unsettling. I doubt the man had any ill intent, but again, as so many of you have mentioned - things can go from pleasant to confrontational at the drop of a hat. And that is what I wish we could somehow impart to men - that they in almost all cases represent the *POTENTIAL* for physical threat to us. Unless we know you really well, we have to be braced for things to go south. And even that is wishful thinking, given how many sexual assaults are by people the victim already knew. Even family.

 

[bounceswoosh]

God, I'm sorry, that's terrible.

It did remind me of this essay, which, even though the content is obviously a bummer, I've always thought was quite good:
https://www.alicebradley.net/blog/on-being-an-object-and-then-not-being-an-object.html

Er, not to miss the point, but - wait, 42 is middle aged? I'm 40, and I still think of myself as young! (And I keep forgetting I turned 40.)

I definitely attempted to cultivate an aura of intimidation as a teen through my early twenties, with dubious effectiveness. I practiced martial arts like some dedicated people practice their religion. I walked with male swagger and practiced not swaying my hips. I wore men's clothes almost all the time. I carried wicked looking knives and never wore shoes I couldn't run in. I questioned my gender identity - to the point of tears multiple times - because I seemed to always like the things that only boys were supposed to like. But I didn't know terms like "gender identity," so it was maybe even more confusing than it would be for a kid today. I thought if I were tough enough, if I walked with enough confidence, if I acted masculine enough, I wouldn't be attacked. I mean, don't get me wrong - I also enjoyed that identity and that way of presenting. It's complicated. I was also slim and cute enough to pull off baggy jeans and a ratty tee with a flannel and a backwards baseball cap and still be kind of adorable. I doubt I actually appeared intimidating to anyone.

I remember asking a friend to walk me home from his dorm one night. I'd been trying to learn not to be quite so obstinate and self-reliant. He responded, "You have a second degree black belt! You don't need anyone to walk with you!" Okay, never asked that again. Of course, my martial arts training was beside the point. I went to a school in a tourist town, and you heard about abductions more frequently than you'd think. Having another person there - a male person - would make a difference in being picked as a target.

My therapist says I'm hyper vigilant, just because of little things like I want to sit in the chair that has the best view of the restaurant "so I don't get shivved." I don't like my back to the door in a public place like that. I don't know how much is my character, and how much is simply what I was taught in those martial arts classes - situational awareness so that you can avoid confrontation before it ever happens.

I had a number of things happen. Small things, relatively speaking. I froze every time, like the woman who wrote that blog post. I couldn't even react. Could barely think. And then would beat myself up mentally for not being able to beat the crap out of the men who acted that way.

Aaand can't think of a way to wrap this up.