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Some ski porn for us snow deprived!!
- Thread starter Jilly
- Start date
Wow. That is a great video of how to really edge your skis. Last weekend, I had x2 two hour lessons as part of this amazing deal that Falls Creek has, where if your kids are in ski school all day, you a get a full lift pass plus a two hour lesson for just $65. It normally costs $113 for a day pass, so it is a cranking deal! It's called Coffee Club for Mums and you also get a free coffee to start...
Anyway, it is quite sometime since I had a lesson and there were only three of us in the group. Our instructor actually did about an hour on carving and really getting that ski up on edge. He explained that it is best to use carving turns on moderate slopes as you so easily pick up speed. He had us lifting up the uphill inside ski as if this is not unweighted properly it is hard to really carve. This was really the first time that I have had it explained properly to me. I followed him down a few times and tried to keep in his tracks.
We also worked on using the poles properly, and I didn't know that you don't pole plant for carving turns.
I so enjoyed my lessons. I had been doing a few things quite wrong that he corrected and I loved meeting and skiing with other Mums, one of which lives in the same suburb!
Anyway, it is quite sometime since I had a lesson and there were only three of us in the group. Our instructor actually did about an hour on carving and really getting that ski up on edge. He explained that it is best to use carving turns on moderate slopes as you so easily pick up speed. He had us lifting up the uphill inside ski as if this is not unweighted properly it is hard to really carve. This was really the first time that I have had it explained properly to me. I followed him down a few times and tried to keep in his tracks.
We also worked on using the poles properly, and I didn't know that you don't pole plant for carving turns.
I so enjoyed my lessons. I had been doing a few things quite wrong that he corrected and I loved meeting and skiing with other Mums, one of which lives in the same suburb!
Refresher lessons are always fun.....And that is a smokin deal.....If you watch the video JF does a pole touch....not really a plant. The pole "plant" is necessary as a timing device in the Canadian methodology. I just finished reading our instructor manual....+30C in the shade, so why not!
Magnatude
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Treble Cone doesn't look half bad in that. It's certainly very scenic, though it's hard to keep an eye on the scenery in the video when there's skiing like that going on! (Those little bouncy half turns were interesting). So he's a Rookie Academy instructor in his "off" season, I assume. @Perty, I seem to recall your stepson did his instructor training there last year?
Ursula
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yes, I miss winter too, at least a little, too busy with summer activities.
I watched the movie above now a couple of times and read the comments. Could not help (with a little push from skisailor ;)) but give my 2 cents worth.
JF IS a very strong skier - there is NO doubt. And if I would be in my 20s I might be tempted to want to ski like him. After all, he is in the demo team..... Not being in my 20s anymore and having done a lot of movement analysis in a lot of sport besides skiing, knowing that my knees would not take the pressure anymore, he puts on his knees, and looking overall for a more efficient style of skiing, I thought I will share a few ideas about JF skiing with you.
I know some of you will not agree with me and that is OK. So, here we go.
On this picture we can see his hips way behind the heels and his shoulders about over his heels. With that much mass on his body behind the center of the ski, were do YOU think is his weight centered over his skis?
This is a picture were he transition with the little leap that got mentioned earlier. (I left the time stamp on so you can find the transition on the video) He actually is trying to pull the legs up underneath him for the edge change. Which part of the ski is further off the snow? What does that mean for his weight on his skis?
Here is a transition he uses some extension to change edge, but even with the extension his shoulders never come further forward than about his heels. In the moment he will be touching down on the snow again, his quads will have to carry all the weight of his body that is from the knees up! It's great to be young and athletic!!! I personally probably could handle it for one run, then I would have to make a few phone calls. ;o)
After the extension, here comes the flexing.
Now this picture gets me also a little side tracked. One of the comments mentioned his pole swing.
My eyes tell me this: either he should cut his poles 2 inches shorter so he could drop his hands down - OR he should work on standing taller.
If you watch the video and specifically look for some of the short radii turns where he DOES use a pole touch, you can see how his hands get jerked up by every pole usage. Guess what happens to you when your hand gets jerked up while you are going into the next turn? You probably guessed right: it will through you more in the back seat.
(Side note: way back when I competed in all kinds of skiing events, I had different poles for the different events: I am 5'6" - 44" poles for bumps, 46" for teaching and normal skiing and slalom, 48" for GS and downhill, 54" for ballet. If you have time, find some videos of the mogul skiing in the last Olympics. Then compare runs that look really smooth and some that don't. More likely you will see that the racers with the smooth runs had their poles exactly in the correct length and they had NO problems keeping their hands where they belong. )
Back to the topic on hand:
This is a picture of JF just starting down the slopes, he IS tall!
Couple of seconds later in his usual position.......
One more thought. About his transitions. (or edge change)
In most of his longer radii turns, he is using some extension of his legs to change edge, (he really never comes forward into the turn, he moves only lateral,) and then drops his hip to the inside.
In his short radii turns, he flexes his legs more to get the skis to the other side.
For this kind of turn, there are a lot of different terms out there: absorption turns, crossing under turns, retraction turns, etc. For me it is an easy question: what are the joints doing to get to the edge change? Are all, (or most) joints extending? are the flexing, or is one leg doing the extension and the other leg the flexion?
These are the three ways to change edge.
In his short turns, he is using the flexing of his legs and hips to get the skis to the other side. (Which by the way is the quicker method to get the edge change accomplished.)
Please don't get me wrong, I am not here to say that this is bad skiing, I just want to say that we should be careful wishing what we want to do. I can ski all day long non-stop runs that have more than 4000' in one descent, I could not do that in JF's style.
Let me know if you have questions. Time permitting, I will answer.
Ursula
I watched the movie above now a couple of times and read the comments. Could not help (with a little push from skisailor ;)) but give my 2 cents worth.
JF IS a very strong skier - there is NO doubt. And if I would be in my 20s I might be tempted to want to ski like him. After all, he is in the demo team..... Not being in my 20s anymore and having done a lot of movement analysis in a lot of sport besides skiing, knowing that my knees would not take the pressure anymore, he puts on his knees, and looking overall for a more efficient style of skiing, I thought I will share a few ideas about JF skiing with you.
I know some of you will not agree with me and that is OK. So, here we go.
On this picture we can see his hips way behind the heels and his shoulders about over his heels. With that much mass on his body behind the center of the ski, were do YOU think is his weight centered over his skis?
This is a picture were he transition with the little leap that got mentioned earlier. (I left the time stamp on so you can find the transition on the video) He actually is trying to pull the legs up underneath him for the edge change. Which part of the ski is further off the snow? What does that mean for his weight on his skis?
Here is a transition he uses some extension to change edge, but even with the extension his shoulders never come further forward than about his heels. In the moment he will be touching down on the snow again, his quads will have to carry all the weight of his body that is from the knees up! It's great to be young and athletic!!! I personally probably could handle it for one run, then I would have to make a few phone calls. ;o)
After the extension, here comes the flexing.
Now this picture gets me also a little side tracked. One of the comments mentioned his pole swing.
My eyes tell me this: either he should cut his poles 2 inches shorter so he could drop his hands down - OR he should work on standing taller.
If you watch the video and specifically look for some of the short radii turns where he DOES use a pole touch, you can see how his hands get jerked up by every pole usage. Guess what happens to you when your hand gets jerked up while you are going into the next turn? You probably guessed right: it will through you more in the back seat.
(Side note: way back when I competed in all kinds of skiing events, I had different poles for the different events: I am 5'6" - 44" poles for bumps, 46" for teaching and normal skiing and slalom, 48" for GS and downhill, 54" for ballet. If you have time, find some videos of the mogul skiing in the last Olympics. Then compare runs that look really smooth and some that don't. More likely you will see that the racers with the smooth runs had their poles exactly in the correct length and they had NO problems keeping their hands where they belong. )
Back to the topic on hand:
This is a picture of JF just starting down the slopes, he IS tall!
Couple of seconds later in his usual position.......
One more thought. About his transitions. (or edge change)
In most of his longer radii turns, he is using some extension of his legs to change edge, (he really never comes forward into the turn, he moves only lateral,) and then drops his hip to the inside.
In his short radii turns, he flexes his legs more to get the skis to the other side.
For this kind of turn, there are a lot of different terms out there: absorption turns, crossing under turns, retraction turns, etc. For me it is an easy question: what are the joints doing to get to the edge change? Are all, (or most) joints extending? are the flexing, or is one leg doing the extension and the other leg the flexion?
These are the three ways to change edge.
In his short turns, he is using the flexing of his legs and hips to get the skis to the other side. (Which by the way is the quicker method to get the edge change accomplished.)
Please don't get me wrong, I am not here to say that this is bad skiing, I just want to say that we should be careful wishing what we want to do. I can ski all day long non-stop runs that have more than 4000' in one descent, I could not do that in JF's style.
Let me know if you have questions. Time permitting, I will answer.
Ursula
mustski
Angel Diva
Q: In your opinion, of there 3 ways to change edge which is the most energy effective?
I tend towards the third method and I wonder if I should be focusing on one of the other methods.
Skisailor
Angel Diva
Great post Ursula. 
I thought the most important thing you said was . . we should be careful about what we are wishing to do. JF is a powerful skier and fun to watch. But being no spring chicken, I can't imagine the stance he employs in this video being a good one for the vast majority of recreational skiers - especially we who are getting older and hoping to continue to do this for awhile.
And I know! I "got low" like that for years and it hampered my skills progression (inhibits leg rotation) and my ability to ski long runs or long days without major quad fatigue. Thanks for helping me to "stand up". (Still a work in progress I know!). And to use all 3 leg joints - hips, knees AND ANKLES! LOL. (JF really only uses hips and knees - which is why his lower leg is so vertical all the time.) And this puts his weight pretty far back on his skis.
I'm curious whether CSIA teaches the "matching angles" concept - i.e. that the angle from ankle to knee should = angle from knee to hip should = the angle from hip to shoulders?
I thought the most important thing you said was . . we should be careful about what we are wishing to do. JF is a powerful skier and fun to watch. But being no spring chicken, I can't imagine the stance he employs in this video being a good one for the vast majority of recreational skiers - especially we who are getting older and hoping to continue to do this for awhile.
And I know! I "got low" like that for years and it hampered my skills progression (inhibits leg rotation) and my ability to ski long runs or long days without major quad fatigue. Thanks for helping me to "stand up". (Still a work in progress I know!). And to use all 3 leg joints - hips, knees AND ANKLES! LOL. (JF really only uses hips and knees - which is why his lower leg is so vertical all the time.) And this puts his weight pretty far back on his skis.
I'm curious whether CSIA teaches the "matching angles" concept - i.e. that the angle from ankle to knee should = angle from knee to hip should = the angle from hip to shoulders?
Ursula
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Mustski, yes, I agree, most of the time, the "long leg, short leg" transition will be the most energy efficient way to get the edge change done. But, then we have moguls ------ there you are better off using the "both legs short" transition.
For me, the "both legs long" transition is pretty outdated. I personally only use it when I want to get airborne. ; o)
My question always is: were did the "both leg long" transition come from? Over 100 years ago, the ski instructors "invented" the "UP" move. To un-weight the ski, to get the turn going. Now, those days, there was no grooming, the skis were looooooooooong and heavy wooden boards. After this intitial discovery of movement to transition from turn to turn, generations after generations of ski instructors repeated the story: you must go up to start your turn, you must sink down to finish your turn.
Well, in the meantime, the skis and the slopes have changed quite a bit. I believe, if we would have one of these computer viruses that would eliminate all our knowledge about skiing in our brain, but we still would know about sports like surfing and skateboarding (where you don't have a binding that attaches you to the board), the LAST movement we would re-invent, is going UP to start a turn. (Try that on a surfboard and you are so fast in the drink, you didn't know what hit you. ;o))
We would use the "long leg, short leg" transition and the "both legs short" transition.
Back to your original question> should you focus on one or the other? To be a well-rounded skier, you should be able to use all three of them. On demand, sort of. When I am free skiing, I probaby will use 80% of "long leg, short leg" , the "both legs long" I truly only use if I want to get airborne. But I don't think about what transition I will be using for my next turns, I just let my body go downhill and my legs will do what is needed to get me there.
Ursula
For me, the "both legs long" transition is pretty outdated. I personally only use it when I want to get airborne. ; o)
My question always is: were did the "both leg long" transition come from? Over 100 years ago, the ski instructors "invented" the "UP" move. To un-weight the ski, to get the turn going. Now, those days, there was no grooming, the skis were looooooooooong and heavy wooden boards. After this intitial discovery of movement to transition from turn to turn, generations after generations of ski instructors repeated the story: you must go up to start your turn, you must sink down to finish your turn.
Well, in the meantime, the skis and the slopes have changed quite a bit. I believe, if we would have one of these computer viruses that would eliminate all our knowledge about skiing in our brain, but we still would know about sports like surfing and skateboarding (where you don't have a binding that attaches you to the board), the LAST movement we would re-invent, is going UP to start a turn. (Try that on a surfboard and you are so fast in the drink, you didn't know what hit you. ;o))
We would use the "long leg, short leg" transition and the "both legs short" transition.
Back to your original question> should you focus on one or the other? To be a well-rounded skier, you should be able to use all three of them. On demand, sort of. When I am free skiing, I probaby will use 80% of "long leg, short leg" , the "both legs long" I truly only use if I want to get airborne. But I don't think about what transition I will be using for my next turns, I just let my body go downhill and my legs will do what is needed to get me there.
Ursula
mustski
Angel Diva
@Ursula Thank you for your response. Usually, I just free ski. Mostly my body just does what it needs to. I never did become very good at moguls and pretty much avoid them at this point in my life. Sometimes that is just not possible so, the next time that occurs, I will try to remember the both legs short transition.
