Skiing Well and Skiing Bumps

[bounceswoosh]

Good point! We can tip our feet to flatten our skis but if our body remains uphill, there will still be some edge left on the snow and the skis won't slide. This usually leads to some upper body rotation to "help" the skis turn. Flattening our skis and moving our weight over the downhill ski both need to happen or we get "stuck" and have to pick up the inside ski or do something else to start the turn. It does not take much edge to preclude the ski from sliding. Once the skis are flat, gravity does the work.

Flattening the skis seems like a very simple concept but can be difficult to do as terrain gets steeper, snow gets bumpier or cruddy.

If I asked 100 students what they would do if the instructor told them to flatten their skis - I'd be surprised if even one of them said to get their CoM down the hill. I am left wondering why instructors ever use the phrase "flatten your skis." But maybe I'm the only one who didn't get the right message out of this instruction?

I'm actually pretty effective at tipping my skis enough to sideslip without using my body - after all, I've been doing it for years - but I'm not sure that's a good thing.

 

[Skier31]

If I asked 100 students what they would do if the instructor told them to flatten their skis - I'd be surprised if even one of them said to get their CoM down the hill. I am left wondering why instructors ever use the phrase "flatten your skis." But maybe I'm the only one who didn't get the right message out of this instruction?

I'm actually pretty effective at tipping my skis enough to sideslip without using my body - after all, I've been doing it for years - but I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Sometimes instructors are good at telling people "what" to do but not "how". This is something that has frustrated Bags for years and he strives to teach people the "how" and not just the what. I am working on that as well.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Sometimes instructors are good at telling people "what" to do but not "how". This is something that has frustrated Bags for years and he strives to teach people the "how" and not just the what. I am working on that as well.

It was Pete who fixed my misperception. Smart guy. Also relevant that I was in a much more teaching oriented group than I have been the last few years.

 

[Jilly]

We all learn differently too. Some can just watch and do the "thing". Others need detailed explanations. Visual vs cognitive.

I've watched colleagues explain something. It's obvious the student didn't understand. Then they just say the same thing over and over again. And usually louder. The student didn't understand anything the first time....re focus, reword etc. Think of a different way to say the same thing.

I like bounceswoosh's observation. I've never thought about it as I always release the edges and roll the knees downhill. The rest seems to follow if your centered.

 

[marzNC]

We all learn differently too. Some can just watch and do the "thing". Others need detailed explanations. Visual vs cognitive.

One reason I like doing semi-private or a group clinic is that I get to observe the instructor teaching someone else.

When we were at Taos last winter, it was great to watch groups do the intermediate bumps when we were riding Lift 8. As I've learned more about movement analysis, trying to figure out what is working well and what is about to be a problem is useful. I don't do it to learn how to teach someone how to do something, but it helps me understand comments from an instructor during a lesson.

 

[bounceswoosh]

One reason I like doing semi-private or a group clinic is that I get to observe the instructor teaching someone else.

When we were at Taos last winter, it was great to watch groups do the intermediate bumps when we were riding Lift 8. As I've learned more about movement analysis, trying to figure out what is working well and what is about to be a problem is useful. I don't do it to learn how to teach someone how to do something, but it helps me understand comments from an instructor during a lesson.

I also had the privilege, last season, of being both a student in the group, but also the sweep/shadow. When I had the instructor to myself, I asked lots of questions about why he taught X, why he didn't go into Y, etc. Very cool to get that perspective from an experienced and thoughtful instructor. In my case, I do want to eventually teach - but like you, it helps me understand.

 

[marzNC]

The bonus for having talked my ski buddy Bill into taking lessons is that I get to see how his skiing improves after working with instructors. (He was an advanced skier in high school and is over 60.) It surprised me a bit that he opted to do the Taos Ski Week. But it's really a good deal. After just the first two days of the Taos Ski Week, he was noticeably smoother on bumps. His group spent the last part of the week skiing double-blacks. I know from skiing with him in recent years that he wouldn't have enjoyed that type of terrain before the lessons we had with PSIA Level 3 instructors with 20+ years of experience. And the tweaks to his technique stuck. I could tell when we skied together at Alta during late season.

For those who missed it, check out the trip report by @Olesya Chornoguz about her Ski Week experience.

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/taos-ski-week-2017.21545/

The advantage of being at Taos to learn bumps is that they have a variety of bump terrain from easy to extreme and lots of very experienced instructors. That's why we're going back sooner rather than later. Seems to be the case for @W8N2SKI too. She's heading back to Taos again with the DC Ski Club.

 

[Powgirl]

Good point! We can tip our feet to flatten our skis but if our body remains uphill, there will still be some edge left on the snow and the skis won't slide. This usually leads to some upper body rotation to "help" the skis turn. Flattening our skis and moving our weight over the downhill ski both need to happen or we get "stuck" and have to pick up the inside ski or do something else to start the turn. It does not take much edge to preclude the ski from sliding. Once the skis are flat, gravity does the work.

Flattening the skis seems like a very simple concept but can be difficult to do as terrain gets steeper, snow gets bumpier or cruddy.

This was truly my ah-ha moment from last year!

 

[newboots]

This was truly my ah-ha moment from last year!

I think I might have just learned to side-slip! Here on the couch!

 

[VickiK]

Hope the vino is ok.

 

[mustski]

Flattening the skis seems like a very simple concept but can be difficult to do as terrain gets steeper, snow gets bumpier or cruddy.

True words!

 

[SallyCat]

Sometimes instructors are good at telling people "what" to do but not "how". This is something that has frustrated Bags for years and he strives to teach people the "how" and not just the what. I am working on that as well.

That's been my experience for sure.

I demoed a pair of Flo Skis at Mammoth in June just for fun. The owner came with, and from behind me, he kept yelling "step up!" At first I was like "What the eff is he talking about?" Then I realized he was telling me to shift my weight to my outside ski at the beginning of each turn.

I'd been working on my skiing like a demon for nearly three weeks, taking lessons and asking very kind and patient Divas to film me with my phone so I could see my form. My #1 most obvious problem every time was heel/tail-shoving. I knew it, saw it, and couldn't correct it. Instructors kept saying "let the ski do the work," etc. and I just wasn't getting what I was supposed to do.. Literally having someone yell at me at just the right time changed my skiing massively. And then @Tennessee showed me how to link my pole use to those turns and voila: I think I just shot up to another skill plateau, and I definitely feel like a much better skier.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I demoed a pair of Flo Skis at Mammoth in June just for fun. The owner came with, and from behind me, he kept yelling "step up!" At first I was like "What the eff is he talking about?" Then I realized he was telling me to shift my weight to my outside ski at the beginning of each turn.

I don't think I ever would have gotten from "step up!" to "shift weight to the outside ski" - that's a miracle in itself!

 

[SnowHot]

Sometimes instructors are good at telling people "what" to do but not "how". This is something that has frustrated Bags for years and he strives to teach people the "how" and not just the what. I am working on that as well.

This!!!!
Its about instruction in general, not bumps specific.
When I was teaching, I did clinics with one particular clinic leader. He kept telling me to ski across the fall line, move across my skis and "feel this". I never "felt that" and was getting frustrated. The coach was, in turn, getting frustrated with me. What's more important to this story is that there were student/instructors who were "feeling it"
One day I was at a different mountain, just playing around and bumped into a friend and amazing instructor (Greg Felsch) He asked me how my teaching experience was going, so I explained that the teaching was going well but I was getting frustrated with these clinics.
We skied together the rest of the day and Greg had me.....(in short)
Flex into your boot like this when you want to do that
Flex into your boot like this when you want to do the other thing.
Now do this...

Me = AH HAH!

Moral of the story: Different people learn from different methods.
I needed pieces of a puzzle to see the big picture.


@Skier31 One of the best pieces of information skiing bumps for me came from Weems.
He said, "You're looking at the bumps as obstacles to get around. You need to look at them as opportunities to turn"
My Weems-ism - Bumps are opportunities not obstacles.

 

[bounceswoosh]

When I was teaching, I did clinics with one particular clinic leader. He kept telling me to ski across the fall line, move across my skis and "feel this". I never "felt that" and was getting frustrated. The coach was, in turn, getting frustrated with me. What's more important to this story is that there were student/instructors who were "feeling it"

I hate it when people tell me to do something and "see how it feels." On the other hand, also, an examiner friend told me that you can't teach by describing a feeling - because people feel things as different sensations. But, she said, once a student has identified a particular feeling for a particular move, she could repeat their own terminology back to them in the appropriate instances.

I don't think most instructors are at that level of teaching proficiency and awareness. I'm 100% sure all instructors are doing the best they can, though, and they probably lean heavily on the things that worked best for them.

@Skier31 One of the best pieces of information skiing bumps for me came from Weems.
He said, "You're looking at the bumps as obstacles to get around. You need to look at them as opportunities to turn"
My Weems-ism - Bumps are opportunities not obstacles.

A friend of mine told me years ago that he saw a bump field not as a limit to his choices, but an infinite expansion of his choices. At the time, I couldn't see it. When I could see it, my world opened up. I still struggle with bumps, but what's that saying? Is it a Bob Barnes thing? Sucking at a higher level, something like that?

 

[SallyCat]

was getting frustrated. The coach was, in turn, getting frustrated with me. What's more important to this story is that there were student/instructors who were "feeling it"

That annoys me as a teacher. How can you be teaching something and not constantly check for understanding? Or listen to someone who's telling you they don't understand? Wouldn't you want to have a quiver of different ways to demonstrate/explain a thing? Sheesh.

Reminds me of another teacher's project years ago that sat outside my classroom for months: a sugar-cube model of the Great Wall of China, rotting and attracting ants. I kept wondering what the *bleep* you were supposed to be showing you learned about ancient Chinese culture, politics, philosophy, or society by gluing sugar cubes together.

 

[SnowHot]

That annoys me as a teacher. How can you be teaching something and not constantly check for understanding? Or listen to someone who's telling you they don't understand? Wouldn't you want to have a quiver of different ways to demonstrate/explain a thing? Sheesh.

I still ski with this instructor from time to time and I get along with him great.
In a conversation over lunch one day he said, "That year you skied in my clinics was a break out year for you."
I said, "You can't take credit for that. That was Greg Felsch" He chuckled and acknowledged that Greg is a great instructor and he could learn a lot from him.

I think the moral of this story could be, we all get stuck, even good instructors get stuck from time to time.

 

[Skier31]

I was very disappointed in the a multiple day camp I attended, because I was told to "coach myself". I told the person that I did not pay to coach myself and did not need to come to a camp to do that.

I am also not a "feeler" and am trying to develop that portion of my skiing. I want to be told if I am doing it or not and I can adjust from there.

 

[SnowHot]

I was very disappointed in the a multiple day camp I attended, because I was told to "coach myself". I told the person that I did not pay to coach myself and did not need to come to a camp to do that.

I am also not a "feeler" and am trying to develop that portion of my skiing. I want to be told if I am doing it or not and I can adjust from there.

I think that is another area where you and I are similar.
I can feel it but only after I have the input and a piece of the puzzle.

 

[CrystalRose]

I was very disappointed in the a multiple day camp I attended, because I was told to "coach myself". I told the person that I did not pay to coach myself and did not need to come to a camp to do that.

I am also not a "feeler" and am trying to develop that portion of my skiing. I want to be told if I am doing it or not and I can adjust from there.

What?! So what happened? Did you coach yourself? Was another instructor available? Was a refund possible?