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Lindsey Vonn To Race Men?

nopoleskier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
At the risk of opening a few more cans of worms, my first thought these days when it comes to competitions that are divided by sex is how to account for those individuals transitioning from one sex to the other, who want to compete.
btw, @nopoleskier at my high school, the girls and boys ski teams trained together, too. Even on land. My claim to fame is that one day for land training, we were playing soccer with the guys, and a guy who was also on the varsity soccer team decided he'd slide tackle me. I saw him coming, kicked the ball forward as he approached, leaped over him as he slid, and kept running with the ball as he was on the ground.

ETA: now that I think about it, co-ed soccer for dry land training is a terrible idea given the types of injury that can occur...


I also started to write wondering about the transgenders that are now competing as men or women. yes can o'worms..

I'm smiling at the visual of you jumping over him.. hope he got a good grass burn too :-)

I'm all for anything that gets women out there and even if a publicity stunt ladies have been cast as subservient and weaker and should stay home and sew and cook.. There are instances many stated here that WE ladies CAN and do beat guys.. there is still to much sexism and women being put down and not given equal access that guys get.
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
lol, I know, sorry. I'm incapable of talking about anything in this general area without going off on a million tangents.

You absolutely didn't introduce the tangent. It just starts every time this comes up: I see a clear distinction; apparently others don't. :noidea: Not a huge deal, it is what it is. But (a) I'm not fond of echo chambers, and (b) I think it's a huge leap from "Yeah, not sure LV racing in a men's race is a good idea" to "Women can TOO do sports!! Yes we can! I can beat my brother in tennis!" That's just sometimes how it feels.
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
At the risk of opening a few more cans of worms, my first thought these days when it comes to competitions that are divided by sex is how to account for those individuals transitioning from one sex to the other, who want to compete.



btw, @nopoleskier at my high school, the girls and boys ski teams trained together, too. Even on land. My claim to fame is that one day for land training, we were playing soccer with the guys, and a guy who was also on the varsity soccer team decided he'd slide tackle me. I saw him coming, kicked the ball forward as he approached, leaped over him as he slid, and kept running with the ball as he was on the ground.

ETA: now that I think about it, co-ed soccer for dry land training is a terrible idea given the types of injury that can occur...

Oh man, I played in a coed adult league in DC shortly after graduating from college. It was on an all-dirt field, like you see in other countries. Once the guys see that you won't let up, then they don't let up. I had to quit ... my skill level was up there, but I was getting manhandled. Falling on grass is one thing; on hard-packed dirt could be quite another. I started coaching a girls team, instead.

As far as I know, girls and boys train together into high school in many sports. It's beneficial for both parties. For girls, the speed and strength is often a step up; the boys have to figure out how to do things without being unnecessarily physical.

The transitioning thing is definitely an issue. I'm sure many are sweating over it right now; but considering that Bruce Jenner was the best athlete in the world in his prime, can you imagine Caitlyn? Damn. Does she still work out?
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Oh man, I played in a coed adult league in DC shortly after graduating from college. It was on an all-dirt field, like you see in other countries. Once the guys see that you won't let up, then they don't let up. I had to quit ... my skill level was up there, but I was getting manhandled. Falling on grass is one thing; on hard-packed dirt could be quite another. I started coaching a girls team, instead.

I tore my ACL playing soccer in a coed adult league, while fighting for the ball vs. a guy --- not, as many people assume, while skiing. Now that you mention it, I think my size + skill + determination not to be underestimated made me a target in coed leagues.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I tore my ACL playing soccer in a coed adult league, while fighting for the ball vs. a guy --- not, as many people assume, while skiing. Now that you mention it, I think my size + skill + determination not to be underestimated made me a target in coed leagues.

Weight and size make a big difference in contact sports. There's a reason fighting sports have weight classes.
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
I also started to write wondering about the transgenders that are now competing as men or women. yes can o'worms...

And that's not even a new issue, really. I've competed against a transgender woman in national level races, and that was, I think 10 years ago, maybe more.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
And that's not even a new issue, really. I've competed against a transgender woman in national level races, and that was, I think 10 years ago, maybe more.

There was a BMX rider a while ago ... quite a while ago ...

Trans people are not a new thing, but we're much more culturally aware than we used to be.
 

heather matthews

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Generally speaking once someone has completed medical transition(male to female) they have lost any advantage that their original gender would have conferred on them.Those transitioning from male to female lose significant muscle mass and their red cell count apparently goes down.Once testosterone is taken out of the mix(guys have levels 20 times or more our levels) their ability to build muscle or maintain muscle mass drops right off.I guess thats why its use is banned in athletics etc.
Their was a downhill mountainbiker a few years ago and her participation in competition did cause a fair bit of a ruckus.
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Generally speaking once someone has completed medical transition(male to female) they have lost any advantage that their original gender would have conferred on them.Those transitioning from male to female lose significant muscle mass and their red cell count apparently goes down.Once testosterone is taken out of the mix(guys have levels 20 times or more our levels) their ability to build muscle or maintain muscle mass drops right off.I guess thats why its use is banned in athletics etc.
Their was a downhill mountainbiker a few years ago and her participation in competition did cause a fair bit of a ruckus.

I was thinking more specifically of less progressive athletic organizations that require competitors to compete in divisions based on the sex listed on their birth certificates even after they've transitioned -- situations like this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transgender-high-school-wrestler-responds-to-controversy/

Essentially, a trans boy wanted to compete against other boys, but had to wrestle girls because his birth certificate listed him as female.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Generally speaking once someone has completed medical transition(male to female) they have lost any advantage that their original gender would have conferred on them.

Medical advantage, yes. But there are quite a few advantages conferred when growing up male. I know someone who transitioned in the last decade, and her level of comfort with risky skiing situations etc is unusual for a woman. Her build would also be different, I'd wager, if she'd grown up with female hormones instead of male.

I'm not saying anything about whether trans people should or shouldn't compete in whatever. That's above my pay grade. But I do think there are non-hormonal aspects to competitive advantage.
 

heather matthews

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yes,I could get that there are non hormonal factors based upon male priviledge but I'd wonder if your friends comfort with risky skiing situations is based upon having learned whilst they were testosterone dominant before their transition and that stereotypically male risk taking behaviour has carried on after.Beyond my understanding anyway.And maybe way too simplistic a way of looking at it.After all,we only have to look at female extreme sport athletes and what they take on.Actually male ones too.They're all bonkers!!!
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Yes,I could get that there are non hormonal factors based upon male priviledge but I'd wonder if your friends comfort with risky skiing situations is based upon having learned whilst they were testosterone dominant before their transition and that stereotypically male risk taking behaviour has carried on after.

Such an interesting discussion! I'd be interested in the perspective of people familiar with this, maybe physicians or trans people. I wonder if any of us here are trans.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The only way we'd know is if we'd made such folks comfortable enough...

And even so, trans people aren't obligated to share the gender they were assigned at birth. I happen to know about this one person only because I have known her since before.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
Update: It appears that the FIS has turned down Lindsey Vonn's request to race against men.

So word is now she's focusing on hosting her own event during the World Cup in Lake Louise, Canada. I think this is a smart move; it'll bring a ton of attention to both events.
 

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