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Lindsey Vonn To Race Men?

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
This is something that's been discussed for a while, but it looks like the US Alpine Director now says he's going to push for rule alterations at the May FIS meetings to possibly give Vonn and other female skiers that opportunity down the road.

The complete story is here.

What do you think?
 
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snowski/swimmouse

Angel Diva
I think it would be an interesting "fun event", a crowd drawing one for a resort such at Lake Louse to offer in the week following their official events, including the top ten females and the top three men + the top 7 more who believe they'd beat the women. It might never go beyond a first event, but it'd be fun to see at least a single competition...
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I don't have much of an opinion either way, but the comments of the FIS women's race director, Atle Skaardal, were hilarious. What century is he living in?

“I just don’t see the interest. For me it’s a meaningless comparison. It doesn’t matter if she’s one second behind or a half-second ahead. We compete female against female and men against men. To me it doesn’t matter if one gender is faster or slower. It doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, just because it’s of interest to one racer. I haven’t heard of any other sport being dragged into this kind of position.”

Atle, why don't you read up on other sports?
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Well. It's known around here that I actually agree with Atle. This benefits no one but Vonn; it is otherwise meaningless unless you think combining the tours is a good idea, and no woman thinks that. Plus, where in the past, she was pretty dominant, right now? Apparently she has permanent nerve damage in her arm, and the rest of her is a bit beat, too. She wasn't exactly killing it last season even against the women. I think she is the best speed skier of all time, but there is no reason this can't be done in training, or as a forerunner.

And if you can think of another sport that has done this (in actual competition, not as a sideshow), please let me know. It is possible, I just can't think of it.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Sitting breathless in front of the TV watching Billie Jean King trounce what's-his-name (and who remembers the jerk?) is a treasured memory. There are others. Here are a few:

Nine women who competed in men's sports:
https://www.totalprosports.com/2011/10/28/9-female-athletes-who-competed-against-men/

Professional hockey goalie, Manon Rheaume:

https://www.nhl.com/news/part-1-manon-rheaume-shatters-the-gender-barrier/c-642005

Ila Borders, pitching in professional baseball:

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ila-borders-pitches-in-minor-league-game

Not quite to the NFL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_American_football_players

When I was a child, girls aspired to be secretaries, teachers or nurses, if we thought about careers at all. I went to college and became a teacher, a worthy profession. But later, I got a Ph.D. and I've been a psychologist for 32 years. It had never occurred to me that I could do something like that. Not because of my personality, or lack of ambition. Mostly, it simply wasn't done.

When I was in high school, we started a girls' track team when the school built a new track. Now there was an old track, lumpy and rutted, so we could have practices and track meets. Our gym teachers, unpaid, came out to coach the team.

I was a junior in high school when Title IX was passed. If you're even a few years younger than me, it's almost incomprehensible how much of an afterthought girls' and women's sports were.

https://www.womenssportsfoundation....hletes/mythbusting-every-female-athlete-know/

Nothing changes without pressure. Once upon a time, skiing competition was only for men, period! Professional sports were only for men, period. So what if Lindsey Vonn could be almost washed up? She could be paving the way for your daughter or grand-daughter.

Think back on history. Can you imagine what Jackie Robinson suffered, trying to integrate baseball? This is how change happens.

I don't advocate erasing the lines between women's and men's sports. Men are built stronger and faster. But if a woman wants to play up, push her limits, or (in many sports) earn real money, she should have a chance to compete with men. Today, it's only the exceptional women who can consider this. But when I was a kid, nobody considered it. Things change. I was filled with joy that things had changed when I watched my daughter in the goal for her team - the "boy's" hockey team. A damned good goalie, too.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
I remember what it was like before Title IX, too. Girls' sports really got the short shrift on everything from practice times to equipment to transportation to games. It was pretty sad, at least at my school. There was little if any support.

Re this race: I don't quite see it as breaking through a gender barrier. I mean, I don't think her intention is to change the set-up of ski racing, so men and women would compete head to head on the regular WC circuit. All she's trying to do is get a shot at the men in a one-off race -- at least, that's my understanding. And to that, I say, why the heck not? I think it'd be great for the sport. It'd certainly generate a lot of interest and capture a huge TV audience, which is what ski racing needs. Plus, I think it'd raise awareness and respect for women's ski racing. So what's the harm?
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
To be honest - I've seen the question of Vonn racing with men so many times in the last few years that I feel like I've heard every side of the argument and am just tired of the whole thing.
 

RachelV

Administrator
Staff member
To be honest - I've seen the question of Vonn racing with men so many times in the last few years that I feel like I've heard every side of the argument and am just tired of the whole thing.

Same.

I do like that it keeps coming up on some level, though. I think that anything that makes people think about this stuff -- and maybe makes them a little uncomfortable or angry in the process -- is a good thing. We have a long way to go in this general area and the more conversations there are around "what would real gender equality in sports even look like" the better off we are, I think... even if one particular conversation isn't a great solution for whatever reasons.
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Sitting breathless in front of the TV watching Billie Jean King trounce what's-his-name (and who remembers the jerk?) is a treasured memory. There are others. Here are a few:

Nine women who competed in men's sports:
https://www.totalprosports.com/2011/10/28/9-female-athletes-who-competed-against-men/

Professional hockey goalie, Manon Rheaume:

https://www.nhl.com/news/part-1-manon-rheaume-shatters-the-gender-barrier/c-642005

Ila Borders, pitching in professional baseball:

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ila-borders-pitches-in-minor-league-game

Not quite to the NFL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_American_football_players

When I was a child, girls aspired to be secretaries, teachers or nurses, if we thought about careers at all. I went to college and became a teacher, a worthy profession. But later, I got a Ph.D. and I've been a psychologist for 32 years. It had never occurred to me that I could do something like that. Not because of my personality, or lack of ambition. Mostly, it simply wasn't done.

When I was in high school, we started a girls' track team when the school built a new track. Now there was an old track, lumpy and rutted, so we could have practices and track meets. Our gym teachers, unpaid, came out to coach the team.

I was a junior in high school when Title IX was passed. If you're even a few years younger than me, it's almost incomprehensible how much of an afterthought girls' and women's sports were.

https://www.womenssportsfoundation....hletes/mythbusting-every-female-athlete-know/

Nothing changes without pressure. Once upon a time, skiing competition was only for men, period! Professional sports were only for men, period. So what if Lindsey Vonn could be almost washed up? She could be paving the way for your daughter or grand-daughter.

Think back on history. Can you imagine what Jackie Robinson suffered, trying to integrate baseball? This is how change happens.

I don't advocate erasing the lines between women's and men's sports. Men are built stronger and faster. But if a woman wants to play up, push her limits, or (in many sports) earn real money, she should have a chance to compete with men. Today, it's only the exceptional women who can consider this. But when I was a kid, nobody considered it. Things change. I was filled with joy that things had changed when I watched my daughter in the goal for her team - the "boy's" hockey team. A damned good goalie, too.

I agree with you on almost all these points.

My question was probably not well written: yes, of course men and women have competed against each other; what I meant was the second part "in this fashion." ie, altering rules for a one-off event. Annika Sorenstam is one that I forgot about; she played in a real men's golf tournament (did well the first day but missed the cut, just like a lot of men do, too). I guess on that basis, there has been precedent.

But BJK vs Riggs was not a real match! It was a spectacle, very Vegas. And it was about a million years ago. Rheaume played one period in a preseason game and never played another minute in the NHL. Some of the others are prehistoric, when there was no equivalent opportunity for women.

My issue is that I don't agree at all that it helps women. It helps Vonn. And I think she is a publicity-seeking self-centered person, so there. I said it.
 

nopoleskier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I raced on the boys & men's team all thru high school and college I won and came in top 3 many times. In High school I skied faster than most the guys and my high school was thrilled I wasn't intimidated by competing against guys. I had a great coach who supported and wanted me on the boys team.. We won the States due to me being on the boys team. I did best at XC skiing.. Perhaps growing up skiing w/guys gave me a different mind set?

My best was coming in 2nd in the Jr. College National XC championships at Lake Placid all in the late 70's thanks to Title 9- Yes I pissed off a lot of guys and coaches. @pinto It Certainly was Competition!!

Yes men are stronger but I have to say I am an example that women/girls CAN beat guys and No rules were changed. I raced on the men's course without any 'female' advantage. Just skied hard and fast and did well. At L Placid on "russian hill" a guy would not give me 'track" (supposed to step aside when faster ski comes up) I waited until I could see a judge and kept yelling 'track' finally I timed my stride to ski on his "kick" ski so he fell.. Of course he wanted me DSQ'd but the Judge DSQ'D him instead for failure to give way.

I was honored as the 1st girl to win athlete of the year in the Capital District (Albany NY) I was written up in NYtimes. Yes it was a big deal.. I was invited to go to Olympics but my parents wouldn't support a ski career. (always wondered about the road not taken) and after my success other girls in my little town also raced on the boys teams.

I do hope that my legacy helped other girls and women perform to the best of their abilities whether against same sex or not.

Lindsay is a superb racer and while it may be publicity if she inspires just 1 girl in a small town like mine to go out and "do it" I'm all for it!
 

newboots

Angel Diva
But BJK vs Riggs was not a real match! It was a spectacle, very Vegas. And it was about a million years ago. Rheaume played one period in a preseason game and never played another minute in the NHL. Some of the others are prehistoric, when there was no equivalent opportunity for women.

I guess you and I both have some strong feelings about the issue. I am such a newcomer to skiing I had no idea this has long been a "thing." I don't know anything about her publicity-seeking or rules changes, I just read the article @ski diva posted.

I do kind of wish you wouldn't call my 20s "a million years ago". This stuff happened in my adult lifetime, and was a signal of the sea change happening for women. We worked awfully hard for these changes.

We pre-Title IX women watched that match with bated breath. Riggs spewed sexist venom - maybe that was all for show. But he lost, badly. It was amazing. In those days, Vegas or not, this was a big victory for feminism. It's hard to imagine in today's world. That's because we changed it.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I do hope that my legacy helped other girls and women perform to the best of their abilities whether against same sex or not.

Wow. That's all I can say, wow! You're amazing, and a pioneer. You don't have to feel anything but pride, but I hope you also feel gratitude to your feminist forebears!
 

nopoleskier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Wow. That's all I can say, wow! You're amazing, and a pioneer. You don't have to feel anything but pride, but I hope you also feel gratitude to your feminist forebears!

Thank you!! Yes prior women athletes inspired me.
Many small schools can't afford or don't have the participants to have separate teams. My home town ski team still trainS boys/girls together and if the girls are good enough they compete on the boys team. Go girls!!!
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
I do kind of wish you wouldn't call my 20s "a million years ago". This stuff happened in my adult lifetime, and was a signal of the sea change happening for women. We worked awfully hard for these changes.

We pre-Title IX women watched that match with bated breath. Riggs spewed sexist venom - maybe that was all for show. But he lost, badly. It was amazing. In those days, Vegas or not, this was a big victory for feminism. It's hard to imagine in today's world. That's because we changed it.

Yeah, it was a big deal. Maybe his hate speech was for show, maybe not. (No question, a lot of men agreed with it, even if they didn't say it out loud.) Nonetheless, the pride women had when BJK beat Bobby Riggs? That was real.
 
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newboots

Angel Diva
Yeah, it was a big deal. Maybe his hate speech was for show, maybe not. (No question, a lot of men agreed with it, even if they didn't say it out loud.) Nonetheless, the pride women had when BJK beat Bobby Riggs? That was real.

Amen, sister!

Oops, I forgot where I was for a minute.
:clap:
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I wish people would read what I actually write and not jump to conclusions because they seem to want to get their ire up. There is no one more supportive of women's athletics than I am. Yes, BJK vs Riggs was a HUGE victory for women and athletics. Back then, no one believed any woman could beat any man, even if she was young and at the top and he was old and busted. BJK is an absolute hero for what she has done for women's sports over the years.

But comparing the two situations is, in 2017, kind of pointless. Sorry, but it is. My question was about a real competition, not an exhibition. It doesn't matter if it was important back then or not; I never said it wasn't. Yeah, I competed against boys in the 1970s, too, because that is the only way I could play. Yay for me. But that's over and done with; I would much rather focus on things that matter today and going forward. Like ensuring that all girls have available avenues to participate and don't have to compete with boys (unless there is a compelling reason, ie the elite who need higher competition).

On another note: "After ongoing discussions between Colonial and IMG’s Mark Steinberg, Sorenstam’s manager, Sorenstam was extended an invite Feb. 11, and she quickly accepted.

"But make no mistake: Though many attach Sorenstam’s odyssey onto the PGA Tour to implications that the entire reputation of women’s golf will be at stake, the best female player in the game assures that this is a personal journey.

“I know I have the LPGA’s support going there, but I’m going because I want to go,” said Sorenstam, 32, a winner of 42 LPGA events. “This is my test. I’m testing myself. If I were to put all women on my shoulders, it would be a very heavy load.”
 

RachelV

Administrator
Staff member
... I would much rather focus on things that matter today and going forward. Like ensuring that all girls have available avenues to participate and don't have to compete with boys (unless there is a compelling reason, ie the elite who need higher competition). ...

Not pulling out your quote to disagree with you, but it made me think of this article I read recently about how women are getting increasingly competitive with men in endurance racing (think 100+ mile distances):
https://www.outsideonline.com/2169856/longer-race-stronger-we-get

And this quote from that article in particular:
“Women’s fields are growing fast, and records are falling,” says Rebecca Rusch, 43, a seven-time world-champion mountain biker who has competed against men in endurance events for 25 years. “Which just means we haven’t got anywhere close to maxing out our genetic capabilities yet.”​

The whole article is really interesting. I think over time it's inevitable that it will make sense for women to compete with men in some disciplines. Not to say that it makes sense now in ski racing, or that we should we focusing attention on mixed-gender competitions as a first step where women's opportunities are lacking, but... I guess I just see this as an inevitable thing that we'll have to figure out eventually, so why not start thinking about it now?
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
For sure, endurance sports are headed that way. (Sports that rely on strength, speed, and size, though, I'd beg to differ.) As long as women can qualify under the exact same constraints as men, that's perfectly fine.

I do think this is a totally different discussion than letting Vonn into one race, though. Even she (and Sorenstam) say they don't want to mix the genders in competition; they were just curious for themselves as individuals. This is the disconnect in our discussion here...
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
At the risk of opening a few more cans of worms, my first thought these days when it comes to competitions that are divided by sex is how to account for those individuals transitioning from one sex to the other, who want to compete.



btw, @nopoleskier at my high school, the girls and boys ski teams trained together, too. Even on land. My claim to fame is that one day for land training, we were playing soccer with the guys, and a guy who was also on the varsity soccer team decided he'd slide tackle me. I saw him coming, kicked the ball forward as he approached, leaped over him as he slid, and kept running with the ball as he was on the ground.

ETA: now that I think about it, co-ed soccer for dry land training is a terrible idea given the types of injury that can occur...
 

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