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How do you feel about multi-resort ownership?

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
Just curious -- in light of the Vail's recent acquisition of Park City Mountain Resort, how do you Divas (particularly those of you who live out west) feel about their owning so many resorts? Let's see, there's Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Canyons, Heavenly, Northstar, Kirkwood, and now Park City (did I leave anyone out?). I mean, I'm sure it's great as far as the Epic Pass goes. But that aside, what do you think?
 
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santacruz skier

Angel Diva
Just curious -- how do you Divas out west feel about Vail owning so many resorts? Let's see, there's Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Canyons, Heavenly, Northstar, Kirkwood, and now Park City (did I leave anyone out?). I mean, I'm sure it's great, as far as the Epic Pass goes. But that aside, what do you think?
It's funny but I haven't really seen any great improvements at Heavenly, Northstar, or especially Kirkwood - which is a good thing! With the Tahoe Local Pass @ $459, it's still a screaming deal….
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Just curious -- how do you Divas out west feel about Vail owning so many resorts? Let's see, there's Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Canyons, Heavenly, Northstar, Kirkwood, and now Park City (did I leave anyone out?). I mean, I'm sure it's great, as far as the Epic Pass goes. But that aside, what do you think?

Do not want. I distrust mega corps.
 

BackCountryGirl

Angel Diva
Well, for its sake, Vail should be sure to steer clear of the foibles that took down ASC. Not as many western resorts in its portfolio back in the day, but it was pretty large. Then pretty non-existent!
 

gardenmary

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am also very wary of large mega-corporations. That said - it's wicked expensive to run a ski resort. The money's got to come from somewhere, and like regional theatre that "somewhere" is not going to be ticket sales.

Thinking of the two resorts we visited at Diva Week West - both are owned by corporations. Snowbasin is a subsidiary of Sinclair Oil Corporation, worth about $7.75 billion (more than double Vail's value) and PowMow is owned by Summit Series, which I think (but am not certain) is a non-profit corporation so net worth is irrelevant. The difference I see is in the corporate ethos. Summit has been very front-and-center about its approach to the mountain, and I am confident in saying theirs is the most "crunchy" approach of these three. Snowbasin and Sinclair are very, very much a product of their late CEO, Earl Holding (pre-Olympics covert land swaps with the USFS notwithstanding). They are absolutely committed to the very best quality, no matter how much money that requires or how long it takes to make it happen.

A lot of that corporate ethos has been curated and cultivated by watching the spectacular crash-and-burn of the former owner of PowMow, Western American Holdings, who attempted to annex many residents at the base of the mountain into "Powder Town" and levy new taxes on them. (That loophole in Utah law was addressed after an impressive grass-roots protest movement.) Both Snowbasin and Summit have been VERY careful to court the valley residents in a respectful manner as they proceed with development work. Because, let's face it - if a pissed-off group of homeowners can get the good ol' boys state law changed, it's a better idea to partner with them instead of deal behind their backs.

Now, I can only speak as an outside observer, having never skied a Vail resort - but I think they are cultivating a very different experience. When I think of the spreads I see in Ski magazine, that's how I think of Vail. I realize I could be completely wrong, but I think of them as more of mainstream-plus-luxury, to cater to the typical or casual reader of Ski magazine. Which is fine! And which honestly will make sense in the aura of Park City, at least as I experienced it. One of the things I like the most about Utah skiing is what a wide variety of experiences can be had within a 2-hour drive (counting PowMow to Sundance) and that's before you even head north to Beaver Mountain and Cherry Hill or south to Eagle Point & Brianhead. As we've observed here before, the type of people who want to stay at GoldMiner's Daughter at Alta are not generally the same folks who'll stay at the Canyons. It's a radically different vibe.
 

snow addict

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
If resorts are in the same area geographically, then merging of lift companies is not a bad thing. However when one company buys resorts all over the place, skiers skiing in California may end up paying for lift system upgrades in Utah etc. On the other hand there will be resorts benefiting from it. On balance it's better to leave your money where you ski.
 

RachelV

Administrator
Staff member
I dislike Vail Resorts in particular. :smile: They have so much money that they basically refuse to work with any outside companies even if they offer a better product. They also don't offer any deals on Liftopia, which doesn't affect me personally but sends a crappy message.

I'd rather pay more for my season pass and have fewer options than have one company own most of the resorts where I ski.

Edit: I guess I'm not against big companies owning ski areas, or owning multiple resorts, but I am against one company owning all the resorts in a given destination area.
 

abc

Banned
I'm with RachelV on that one. Vail is definitely trying to 'corner' the Colorado front range market. I'm definitely not happy about that.

I have an opposite view WRT Utah though. I think linking Canyons with PC is a fabulous thing. So I like the fact that vail owning both and will link them together.
 
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bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I hate Vail Resorts. But I love Breck, so I hold my nose and pay up.
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
I, too, am troubled by the idea of one company taking over all of Colorado's front range.

Anyone here remember the American Ski Company debacle? What a mess that was. Overextended and deeply in debt, they finally crashed and burned. And then there's Intrawest, which owns Steamboat, Winter Park, Tremblant, Stratton, Snowshoe, and Blue Mountain. They've had their problems, too, and seem (I think) a little too focused on real estate development.

I know that ski areas have a lot of expenses, and you need deep pockets to keep one going. But a ski company that pays more attention to the vagaries of Wall Street -- and make no mistake, meeting the bottom line of stockholders has to be Vail's focus -- rather than the needs of skiers troubles me. I also worry about a sort of sameness that permeates ski areas held by the same company -- not just physical sameness, but a cultural and procedural sameness, as well. The temptation to standardize on all sorts of things has to be quite strong. It makes for a sort of soulless environment.

Maybe that's why I applaud the efforts of Mountain Riders Alliance so much. Their mission is as follows: To develop values-based, environmentally-friendly, rider-centric mountain playgrounds that encourage minimal carbon footprint business practices, while making a positive impact in the local community. I interviewed Jamie Schectman, one of MRA's founders, a while ago in my blog. You can find it here.

Then again, perhaps I'm romanticizing something that shouldn't be romanticized. Obviously, ski areas need to make money to provide all the goodies we love so much -- grooming, lifts, lodges, etc. Big = money = more amenities. So there is that.
 
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abc

Banned
Then again, perhaps I'm romanticizing something that shouldn't be romanticized. Obviously, ski areas need to make money to provide all the goodies we love so much -- grooming, lifts, lodges, etc. Big = money = more amenities. So there is that.
If you're, then I'm an equally hopeless romantic as you.

I still believe it should be possible to run a business that pay attention to those values without losing money. But they may or may not get as much profit, at least in the short term. On the other hand, I feel many of those values will be more sustainable in the long run for the business.
 

RachelV

Administrator
Staff member
If you're, then I'm an equally hopeless romantic as you.

I still believe it should be possible to run a business that pay attention to those values without losing money. But they may or may not get as much profit, at least in the short term. On the other hand, I feel many of those values will be more sustainable in the long run for the business.

I don't want to get off on a whole tangent here, but that's why B-Corps are so nice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation

They make it legal to do things that aren't the most profitable in the short term, but that are the most sustainable in the long term. It'd be nice to see some skiing parent companies get on this bandwagon.
 

abc

Banned
Not sure I buy that concept.

It's one thing to make decision that's long term beneficial (read: profitable), which is different than doing social good as in non-profit organization. Something else to pursue a "dual purpose" as its mission.

As an investor, I probably wouldn't jump onto that bandwagon unless I think the "social good" will at least indirectly lead to a better profitability of the said company in the long term (e.g. lower carbon footprint == lower energy bill in long run) . I'd much prefer to invest for maximum (long term) profit, then support non-profits with the investment return independently.

But hey, this thing must have plenty of supporters since laws been written for it. It's just not my cup of tea.
 
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ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
An interesting opinion piece about this topic here.

Here's a quote that'll give you the gist:

More and more, resorts are becoming more about the “out of boot” experience, and not just about sliding on snow. More and more, ski hills are owned by real estate developers instead of skiers and riders. More and more, there are fewer options available for where to go skiing and riding. More and more, those options are getting either further away from home, or they are getting too expensive for middle and lower class families.

Read the whole thing. It's interesting, and it's the same concept held by Mountain Rider's Alliance.
 

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