Help Staying Forward Through the Turn?

[SallyCat]

Hello Divas!

I've been working hard at trying to carve good turns, as in really getting on edge and digging trenches with my skis instead of sort of "slarving" which is what I seem to do 99% of the time.

I'm getting better at staying balanced over my skis with my ankles flexed, but the problem is that the momentum of the turn throws me back onto my heels sometimes. I try to make sure my ski pole handles are always in view, and I've found that if I deliberately bring the relevant hand over toward the toes piece of the outside ski that it helps a bit.



Grateful for any feedback; Thanks

 

[CarverJill]

I absolutely love carving. When I'm really trying to carve trenches I lean into the hill it has to be on a relatively steep trail like a nice wide groomed blue/black. I get going fast and lean into the hill but instead of letting my whole body lean in I just let my legs and lower torso lean in and angle my shoulders to match the hill. That means I curve my upper back to angle my downhill shoulder towards my heel on that side. I have no idea if that makes sense. In other words I try to match the angle of my shoulders to the hill. You have to switch which shoulder in down each time you turn.

Carving is amazing good luck.

 

[marzNC]

Can't help in terms of explaining what to do. But I know that my Level 3 instructor and the Examiner on staff at Massanutten can carve trenches in the blue trails. Have followed them often enough to see it happening first hand. I think the technical term that comes to mind is "angulation."

A drill that my Taos instructor did last month was "railroad tracks" on flat runouts. When done correctly, you pick up speed with very little effort. That's why it's practiced on greens or cat tracks. It's a finesse move that's related to carving.

 

[SallyCat]

Yeah I'm working on ankle rolling and angulation today. Dang it's cold; -1 in central VT and very windy!

 

[marzNC]

Yeah I'm working on ankle rolling and angulation today. Dang it's cold; -1 in central VT and very windy!

New England skiing . . . but I guess cold beats a heat wave into the 50s when it's already mid-March.

A drill that my Taos instructor did last month was "railroad tracks" on flat runouts. When done correctly, you pick up speed with very little effort. That's why it's practiced on greens or cat tracks. It's a finesse move that's related to carving.

For what it's worth, I was doing RR tracks wrong for a couple of seasons after Walter first showed me the idea. Key is to avoid what is essentially "park and ride" while working on RR tracks. Still have to be paying attention mentally to do all the correct movements.

 

[Powgirl]

Don't know if this helps, but, this season I have worked on completing my turns...if I rush my turns, I tend to find myself either back or banking. I have also worked on making sure both my skis are flat before beginning the next turn...this puts me in the right and natural position to begin the turn, greeting the fall line (love that feeling) and moving my center of mass over the downhill ski.

I'm sure there are many that disagree with this, but I stopped worrying about carving, slarving, etc...since I have focused more on the above, skiing has become easier, with less work, for me. Sometimes I carve, sometimes I slarve, sometimes I smear...I do notice that true carving can pick up your speed..

I am also working on angulation and keeping my upper body facing more forward...Sometimes that is harder to do on more difficult terrain, but I am improving.

 

[Skisailor]

Learning to carve is fun. But keep in mind that carving is just one skill and that it is all the way at the far end of the spectrum of skiing skills (the other end being pivot slips). Carving is all about going fast on uncrowded wide open runs.

Almost all of the skiing we do is in that vast middle between true carving and pivot slips. And, IMHO, spending time developing the skills that are closer to the pivot slip end of the spectrum is what will actually open up more mountain terrain for you - bumps, steeps, chutes or narrow corridors, trees, powder, etc.

That said, yes - angulation is a key aspect of good carving (and good turning in general) but it is not the thing which keeps you "forward". You can be perfectly angulated and still be totally in the backseat on your heels. Being forward is about moving your center of mass in the direction of the turn ahead of your feet. Because those skis are accelerating after the edge change, if you start a turn without FIRST moving the torso forward relative to the feet, you will spend the rest of the turn trying to catch back up to your skis.

 

[Abbi]

Hello Divas!

I've been working hard at trying to carve good turns, as in really getting on edge and digging trenches with my skis instead of sort of "slarving" which is what I seem to do 99% of the time.

I'm getting better at staying balanced over my skis with my ankles flexed, but the problem is that the momentum of the turn throws me back onto my heels sometimes. I try to make sure my ski pole handles are always in view, and I've found that if I deliberately bring the relevant hand over toward the toes piece of the outside ski that it helps a bit.



Grateful for any feedback; Thanks

My world, too. I'm following this thread. Thanks for asking!

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Funny, I too am interested in trying to do a purely carved turn. I understand that it's not the be all/end all---and I'm also working on the opposite end of the spectrum--pivot slips and want to perfect those as well ( I try to do a few each day I ski, as part of my first few runs drill session). But I see people doing perfectly carved turns seeming effortlessly and it annoys me that no matter how close I get, there seems to be some element on slippage in there that prevents the purely carved turn. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong.

 

[Polly]

I

Yeah I'm working on ankle rolling and angulation today. Dang it's cold; -1 in central VT and very windy!

was up at Bretton Woods today in NH. Holy cow. COLD too!

 

[Jilly]

When I was teaching a ladies night class, I tried to remind the ladies that "your nose, needs to drip on your bindings'! Hands up is important along with all that Skisailor is saying.

We used to say....You're falling through the barn door". So that feeling is similar if you're not forward.

 

[diymom]

My mantra for the season is to be forward. Hands forward- no pole dragging. Shoulders forward- face down hill. Look forward- not just in front of my skis but down the hill. Get forward- be on my skis not behind them. Forward - more than just a word of the day.

 

[Skisailor]

Funny, I too am interested in trying to do a purely carved turn. I understand that it's not the be all/end all---and I'm also working on the opposite end of the spectrum--pivot slips and want to perfect those as well ( I try to do a few each day I ski, as part of my first few runs drill session). But I see people doing perfectly carved turns seeming effortlessly and it annoys me that no matter how close I get, there seems to be some element on slippage in there that prevents the purely carved turn. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong.

Slippage can be a result of a number of factors. How firm is the snow? Do you have a good tune?

Angulation is absolutely essential and changes with the pitch of the slope. If you aren't angulating enough for the degree of steepness, the skis may start to skid.

Tipping the skis and being patient are other keys. A typical ski will carve a turn of 12 to 18 meters in diameter. Anything tighter than that indicates that some degree of steering - adding leg or body rotation - has occurred. We must be patient and resist the temptation to rotate when carving, and just ride the skis and let them turn us. (We can tighten up a carved turn just a bit if we carry enough speed to further bend the skis and reduce the radius of the arc - but this is only a subtle difference).

Tipping is also key. A lot of instructors talk about the tipping starting "down low". But in truth, there is only a little tipping that can actually happen by just utilizing the feet and ankles. It might be helpful for us to think about our feet or our knees when we try to tip the skis, but it's important to understand that the ACTUAL movement is mainly a result of the femurs tipping within the hip sockets.

The pole touch can also cause problems for some. A swinging pole touch toward the ski tip can sometimes cause the hips to rotate uphill a bit - opposite to the direction of the turn - and that can result in an abstem - where the tail of the downhill ski washes out a bit at the start of the turn.

 

[marzNC]

Tipping the skis and being patient are other keys. A typical ski will carve a turn of 12 to 18 meters in diameter. Anything tighter than that indicates that some degree of steering - adding leg or body rotation - has occurred. We must be patient and resist the temptation to rotate when carving, and just ride the skis and let them turn us. (We can tighten up a carved turn just a bit if we carry enough speed to further bend the skis and reduce the radius of the arc - but this is only a subtle difference).

Tipping is also key. A lot of instructors talk about the tipping starting "down low". But in truth, there is only a little tipping that can actually happen by just utilizing the feet and ankles. It might be helpful for us to think about our feet or our knees when we try to tip the skis, but it's important to understand that the ACTUAL movement is mainly a result of the femurs tipping within the hip sockets.

For feeling the effect of tipping the skis, what do you think about garlands on easy (green or easy blue) terrain?

A few years ago, my favorite L3 instructor at Alta used a dryland demonstration sitting on a bench to get ski buddy Bill to understand "tipping" better. That was probably the third season Bill had been doing semi-private lessons with me. (Bill is an older skier who was advanced in high school.) Getting that Aha! Moment was key for him when it came to carving on groomers.

 

[tinymoose]

Hello Divas!

I've been working hard at trying to carve good turns, as in really getting on edge and digging trenches with my skis instead of sort of "slarving" which is what I seem to do 99% of the time.

I'm getting better at staying balanced over my skis with my ankles flexed, but the problem is that the momentum of the turn throws me back onto my heels sometimes. I try to make sure my ski pole handles are always in view, and I've found that if I deliberately bring the relevant hand over toward the toes piece of the outside ski that it helps a bit.



Grateful for any feedback; Thanks

Truth be told, I find I drift back through my turn so I don't find this terribly concerning, personally. I don't think staying in a static position through a turn is really ideal. You can load the tails at the bottom of a turn on a cambered ski and get a little rebound going into the next turn. Although, I'm not sure if this is what you're experiencing or you're just really in the backseat backseat?

If you're still in PA next year, I highly recommend the adult race clinic for learning how to carve and just skiing in general (we even work on things like pivot slips and falling leaf). While I still have a long ways to go, it's done wonders for ability to carve and being more dynamic through my turns.

 

[Skisailor]

For feeling the effect of tipping the skis, what do you think about garlands on easy (green or easy blue) terrain?

A few years ago, my favorite L3 instructor at Alta used a dryland demonstration sitting on a bench to get ski buddy Bill to understand "tipping" better. That was probably the third season Bill had been doing semi-private lessons with me. (Bill is an older skier who was advanced in high school.) Getting that Aha! Moment was key for him when it came to carving on groomers.

Garlands would be great. Also - sideslipping to an edged stop. Both would be good for practicing the right way to edge and to unedge.

 

[Tvan]

This is a video my Okemo instructor shared with us that has really helped me conceptualize what my feet should be doing to get on my edges:

I hope you can stand the hokey music. It helped me to have a visual image of what my feet are doing, or should be doing in my boots. Still working on it, but i’m getting Better at changing from edge, through flat, to edge in my turns.

 

[Skisailor]

Truth be told, I find I drift back through my turn so I don't find this terribly concerning, personally. I don't think staying in a static position through a turn is really ideal. You can load the tails at the bottom of a turn on a cambered ski and get a little rebound going into the next turn. Although, I'm not sure if this is what you're experiencing or you're just really in the backseat backseat?

If you're still in PA next year, I highly recommend the adult race clinic for learning how to carve and just skiing in general (we even work on things like pivot slips and falling leaf). While I still have a long ways to go, it's done wonders for ability to carve and being more dynamic through my turns.

Just had to chime in because - I agree. It's not ideal to stay static through a turn. I just want to make sure you are not equating refining your balance point to the forward part of the foot with static skiing!!

You CAN load the tails of a ski and get a fun rebound effect but there is no way you can load the tails without being in the backseat backseat - at least for a moment. You can also get a fun rebound effect without loading up the tails by bending a cambered ski from the middle.

Anyway - it can be a fun feeling to get that rebound. But by loading the tails you are then stuck with trying to catch back up to your skis during the rest of the turn. And you then also need a much bigger move to get the next turn going.

It can be a fun sensation and it's doable. But it's not efficient. It's much harder on your knees and quad muscles. So for me - a turn or two like that on occasion is enough. I could never ski like that for turn after turn after turn. I'm too old for that!

All just my opinion of course.

 

[SallyCat]

It's not ideal to stay static through a turn. I just want to make sure you are not equating refining your balance point to the forward part of the foot with static skiing!!

Agree, I understood "static" to mean staying in a centered position over your feet throughout the turn, which of course requires movement.

I do NOT like feeling my weight on my heels.

Thanks for all of the feedback! It's been a busy year and when I've been able to ski, I've mostly just bopped around not thinking too much about technique. Now that I have a little more free time I'm starting to pay closer attention and note that I'm still very stuck in a lower-intermediate rut. Now I'm back to focusing more carefully on what I'm doing/not doing. This thread has been very helpful; thanks!

 

[tinymoose]

Just had to chime in because - I agree. It's not ideal to stay static through a turn. I just want to make sure you are not equating refining your balance point to the forward part of the foot with static skiing!!

You CAN load the tails of a ski and get a fun rebound effect but there is no way you can load the tails without being in the backseat backseat - at least for a moment. You can also get a fun rebound effect without loading up the tails by bending a cambered ski from the middle.

Anyway - it can be a fun feeling to get that rebound. But by loading the tails you are then stuck with trying to catch back up to your skis during the rest of the turn. And you then also need a much bigger move to get the next turn going.

It can be a fun sensation and it's doable. But it's not efficient. It's much harder on your knees and quad muscles. So for me - a turn or two like that on occasion is enough. I could never ski like that for turn after turn after turn. I'm too old for that!

All just my opinion of course.

Sorry, think I'm creating confusion b/c I suck at describing things which is why I mostly stay out of technical discussions. lol By backseat-backseat I meant more like hanging out back there and riding there... not just being back at the bottom of the turn.