Cursing Princesses & TGR

[klar]

So the video of the cussing princesses sparked a very odd discussion on tgr of all places. It started out in the never ending boobies and random weirdness thread in the padded room and now has its own separate thread. thought i'd leave that here if anyone is looking for entertainment.
this is the video (contains little girls swearing)

this is the tgr thread:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/281305-wrong-or-right-or-counterproductive

 

[CarolB]

I think the the TGR forums tend to get the one upmanship of ridiculous trash talking going. It makes me absolutely appreciate how many different Diva posters can express their opinions and simply be accepted for their opinion or questioned in a constructive way.

 

[RachelV]

I love that video, but I got about 5 posts into that TGR thread before I had to take a deep breath and leave. There are few things that push my buttons more than having a conversation with people, online or in person, who just KNOW they're right.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I think the the TGR forums tend to get the one upmanship of ridiculous trash talking going. It makes me absolutely appreciate how many different Diva posters can express their opinions and simply be accepted for their opinion or questioned in a constructive way.

TBH, some days I find TGR incredibly entertaining. Usually when I'm not actually trying to get an answer, just amuse myself. Other days it's infuriating.

 

[num]

I think the video did a great job of catching people's attention and bringing up a subject that could definitely benefit from more thought and discussion.

The reactions in the TGR thread, man. It boggles my mind that anyone could watch a video of girls talking about pay inequality and wanting to not be raped or sexually assaulted, and respond by talking about chivalry and how some women like to be treated like princesses. I didn't see the original thread, so I should give the disclaimer that I don't know if a discussion took place there that makes the response more appropriate, but with just what I saw, it strikes me as a ridiculous jump to skirt a huge, undeniable issue.

Another wtf comment for me was the idea that these girls are in for years of therapy in the future. Because cursing traumatized them? Or being taught about misogyny?

 

[klar]

I didn't see the original thread, so I should give the disclaimer that I don't know if a discussion took place there that makes the response more appropriate, but with just what I saw, it strikes me as a ridiculous jump to skirt a huge, undeniable issue.

Ha, you give them too much credit. There was no discussion, someone posted the video, some people said how it was counterproductive because it "furthers stereotypes", I asked which stereotypes and how because I was honestly curious how they got that idea, they got really defensive, went on about how they have totally been objectified by women and then some other people told them to stop with the 'discussion' and get back to posting soft core porn, which they did.

 

[lynseyf]

I love the confusion between chivalry and courtesy, what does the dude going on about feminism killing chivalry do when a guy is walking behind him through a door, slam it in his face? And anyone who gives your grief about holding a door open is being rude, not expounding feminist principles. Yeah some feminists are bitches but some people are bitches!

I've got to say the TGR discussion is better than I thought, a few guys seem to totally get the point and don't jump to the conclusion that discussion of gender inequalities = all men are bad. Men should be as horrified by these issues as women, it's not an attack on all men to talk about these things.

Re the video, I'm not sure how I feel about this. I like the sentiments and agree with what is said in the video but I don't see how having little girls say it makes it more powerful. I think I would prefer this much more if it was young women, still dressed as princesses or beauty pageant queens or whatever, saying this. Although I suppose it wouldn't have got the same publicity then. I don't find little girls swearing particularly shocking, there's just something about it that doesn't sit right with me. but no I don't think the kids in the video will be scared for life or need counselling, have the people saying these things never been to a high school, I remember a lot of swearing at school.

 

[klar]

I love the confusion between chivalry and courtesy, what does the dude going on about feminism killing chivalry do when a guy is walking behind him through a door, slam it in his face? And anyone who gives your grief about holding a door open is being rude, not expounding feminist principles. Yeah some feminists are bitches but some people are bitches!

I've got to say the TGR discussion is better than I thought, a few guys seem to totally get the point and don't jump to the conclusion that discussion of gender inequalities = all men are bad. Men should be as horrified by these issues as women, it's not an attack on all men to talk about these things.

Re the video, I'm not sure how I feel about this. I like the sentiments and agree with what is said in the video but I don't see how having little girls say it makes it more powerful. I think I would prefer this much more if it was young women, still dressed as princesses or beauty pageant queens or whatever, saying this. Although I suppose it wouldn't have got the same publicity then. I don't find little girls swearing particularly shocking, there's just something about it that doesn't sit right with me. but no I don't think the kids in the video will be scared for life or need counselling, have the people saying these things never been to a high school, I remember a lot of swearing at school.

Yeah, a few of them are really trying and definitely get the point. The handful of idiots just keep digging their holes... To me it seems like if the video had young women instead of children it would be more appealing to women and men would largely ignore it. I figure the point of the video was mainly to get a lot of people talking, and that certainly worked.

 

[ski diva]

It boggles my mind that anyone could watch a video of girls talking about pay inequality and wanting to not be raped or sexually assaulted, and respond by talking about chivalry and how some women like to be treated like princesses.

+1. They just. Don't. Get. It.

And you're right, Lynseyf. It wasn't all of them. But the ones who expressed some kind of understanding were pretty rapidly taken down. I mean, don't these guys have wives/daughters/mothers that they care about? Sheesh. On the whole, that's why I stay away from TGR. Granted, there's some good stuff over there. But the level of misogyny is troubling.

And yeah, though the potty-mouthed young girls is sort of distressing, I think the message here is 'you think this is bad? This ain't nothing compared to the real problem.' At least that's what it says to me.

 

[bounceswoosh]

That's explicitly what they're saying. I still find watching it uncomfortable. Based on TGR responses, I think the only people who get the message are those who already agree with it. Preaching to the choir.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Ha, you give them too much credit. There was no discussion, someone posted the video, some people said how it was counterproductive because it "furthers stereotypes", I asked which stereotypes and how because I was honestly curious how they got that idea, they got really defensive, went on about how they have totally been objectified by women and then some other people told them to stop with the 'discussion' and get back to posting soft core porn, which they did.

In the thread drift off the "Calling all lady skiers!" thread on TGR, someone posted about how of course he wouldn't want his teenage daughter reading parts of TGR, but it's a boy's club and he valued that and wasn't interested in giving it up.

I get it - that's sort of why we have TheSkiDiva - but it also makes me sad because it means that somehow the best discussions (sorry) on extremely challenging skiing and on avalanche safety require that you put up with a level of misogyny and abuse that's problematic, to say the least. I wish we could extricate the two, and I wonder if it's even possible. Unlike Klar, I'm not real comfortable with all the bouncing boobs and soft core porn posted. I don't have an issue with porn per se, but it's just so over the top. And clearly TGR as a corp isn't interested in putting effort into toning it down, as their suggestion was to create a separate forum just for women. Arguably they may even have a commercial interest in keeping the BS flowing.

 

[klar]

In the thread drift off the "Calling all lady skiers!" thread on TGR, someone posted about how of course he wouldn't want his teenage daughter reading parts of TGR, but it's a boy's club and he valued that and wasn't interested in giving it up.

I get it - that's sort of why we have TheSkiDiva - but it also makes me sad because it means that somehow the best discussions (sorry) on extremely challenging skiing and on avalanche safety require that you put up with a level of misogyny and abuse that's problematic, to say the least. I wish we could extricate the two, and I wonder if it's even possible. Unlike Klar, I'm not real comfortable with all the bouncing boobs and soft core porn posted. I don't have an issue with porn per se, but it's just so over the top. And clearly TGR as a corp isn't interested in putting effort into toning it down, as their suggestion was to create a separate forum just for women. Arguably they may even have a commercial interest in keeping the BS flowing.

I don't really visit much but I think TAY is a very civil message board with some extremely knowledgeable people. As for TGR, I find that the truly specific and valuable discussions on avalanche safety and gear stuff are usually very focused and free of BS. Subforums like the Slide Zone, Tech Talk, Foto and Video etc are less active but also way less filled with unsavoury elements than ski & sb and the padded room. I don't think I've ever seen a Slide Zone thread derail in really catastrophic fashion.

The problem with increased moderation on TGR is that a lot of the old timers would be opposed on principle. When I first joined the self moderation of the boards worked more effectively. Anyway, this place so calm and soothing, it makes a nice change

oh and good job fighting the good fight and standing up for the ladies over there!

 

[bounceswoosh]

I don't really visit much but I think TAY is a very civil message board with some extremely knowledgeable people. As for TGR, I find that the truly specific and valuable discussions on avalanche safety and gear stuff are usually very focused and free of BS. Subforums like the Slide Zone, Tech Talk, Foto and Video etc are less active but also way less filled with unsavoury elements than ski & sb and the padded room. I don't think I've ever seen a Slide Zone thread derail in really catastrophic fashion.

The problem with increased moderation on TGR is that a lot of the old timers would be opposed on principle. When I first joined the self moderation of the boards worked more effectively. Anyway, this place so calm and soothing, it makes a nice change

oh and good job fighting the good fight and standing up for the ladies over there!

I guess my problem is that I prefer to read forums by just clicking on "all new threads", so I see a lot of crap I don't need to see. I find TGR really hard to navigate - any tips? Do you just click into each of the subforums you want to read individually? Then again, I also used to find epicski unmanageable. Now I manage, but it's mostly by finding a few active threads and subscribing to them, and only going back to "all new threads" when those peter out.

As for the good fight - lol - I'm kind of regretting it now! I used to love arguing on the internet. Got the juices flowing and I got a good hate-on. Now it's just tiring and annoying.

 

[altagirl]

I've given up on TGR over the past few years. I was a regular and met a ton of our Utah friends on there back. ... 13 or so years ago. Then it got more out of hand and I would only look at sprocket rockets and a few other sub forums and now I only look if I hear about something I need to check out, which is really rare.

 

[Pequenita]

To me, the difference between chivalry and courtesy when it comes to doors is that chivalry is holding doors so that someone who has no physical need to do so can pass completely through without touching the door because there's something boorish about touching the door. Courtesy is everyone holding their own doors as they pass through, and the person who reaches the door first opens it, regardless of sex. It drives me nuts when I hold a door open for an adult behind me and that person, who is usually a woman, walks through with no intent of touching the door. My options at that point are either to let go and let it slam into the person because I am still moving forward or, despite being a beat behind, reposition myself so that I can let the person pass through completely. The latter looks like an awkward stagger because I have short arms and am still insistent on moving forward, rather than rolling around to hold the door open like a servant.

Anyway, I think that society continues to send many mixed messages, and especially with the internet, anyone can find an enclave that reinforces his or her beliefs.

 

[altagirl]

What I really hate is when guys who are the stubbornly chivalrous types will see me coming like across the parking lot and hold the door open when I'm like 15 seconds away. And I'm in heels. I now feel obligated to run, because I'm making you stand there waiting for me, when I was taking my time and didn't need your so called help anyway. It's like they would rather make a show off holding the door than anything. (It makes me want to change directions so I don't have to hurry. )

Haha its like something I read on FB recently, that southerners should NEVER lose a politeness war. Let others go through the door first. Wait for hours, if necessary, in the event of a standoff.

Can we not just use common sense? Don't let doors slam in people's faces. Hold doors for people carrying large objects. Offer to help people who look like they may need it. Gender shouldn't have anything to do with it.

I'm not going to complain to the door holder, because I know it's habit for many, but I wish we could just take care of ourselves.

To me, the worst yet is when I can't decipher if a man is holding a door and wanting me to go ahead or not. I don't want to go ahead of anyone, but I don't want to be rude and sometimes it's hard to tell if they are really expecting you to go through or take the door, which is totally awkward. If everyone would just let you take the door unless you have your hands full it would be so much easier.

 

[RachelV]

I've given up on TGR over the past few years. I was a regular and met a ton of our Utah friends on there back. ... 13 or so years ago. Then it got more out of hand and I would only look at sprocket rockets and a few other sub forums and now I only look if I hear about something I need to check out, which is really rare.

Ha, it's funny you mention that, because the one thing that makes me give TGR the benefit of the doubt was meeting a bunch of your friends when I spent all that time in Utah in 2009. Every time I get enraged about something on TGR I think something like, "But... but.. altagirl met some legitimately cool people here! Where are *those* people?"

 

[bounceswoosh]

Ha, it's funny you mention that, because the one thing that makes me give TGR the benefit of the doubt was meeting a bunch of your friends when I spent all that time in Utah in 2009. Every time I get enraged about something on TGR I think something like, "But... but.. altagirl met some legitimately cool people here! Where are *those* people?"

What confuses me is, someone will say something really sensitive and supportive, and I'm like, oh, that's a cool person. And then they'll post something somewhere else that makes me want to murderize them with my eyeball lasers.

 

[altagirl]

Ha, it's funny you mention that, because the one thing that makes me give TGR the benefit of the doubt was meeting a bunch of your friends when I spent all that time in Utah in 2009. Every time I get enraged about something on TGR I think something like, "But... but.. altagirl met some legitimately cool people here! Where are *those* people?"

I think most of them left 5++ years ago now. Though, not having been on there much in years, I guess it's hard to say completely, but I only know a few who are still active at all. And most are using it for the gear swap stuff and things like that.

There were genuinely cool things happening there in the past. We have skis in the garage that were made by PMGear, which was a company started on the original Powder board - essentially a kickstarter project before kickstarter existed.

We hosted ski movies and the athletes who starred in them - meaning we tour guided Shane McConkey and the Gaffney's around Alta one day way back when...

My friend Richard put together a decent mountain bike out of parts donated by maggots out of our spare parts and we held a competition to give it away to someone deserving. I think someone else had to nominate you.

A decade ago, there would be parties where people would give out their home address and people would show up and it was fun. And then it got rowdier and there were fights and drama and... that was the end of that. Or basically, the non-crazy people quit hosting/going, anyway.

Though, like I said, I have no idea what's going on lately. Honestly, I think it just got too big and a handful of bad apples (and no moderation) took the fun out of it for me. The no moderation thing was nice for a while... until it wasn't.

 

[lynseyf]

I would be interested to see the demographics of TGR users. I'm not easily offended at all, I don't find swearing offensive and don't mind nudity, am happy to ignore what I don't wanna see. I've never posted on TGR (well twice) but have dipped in and out reading bits of it for years and it almost seems like some of the posters are being caricatures of what they think a TGR poster should be. I quite like how there is an edge there, I have an edge in real life, but it sometimes reads as forced and I often have the mental image of a fat, middle aged man sitting at his desk at work and posting things that a 16 year old would be embarrassed by cause he thinks it's cool.