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Help Needed: Crazy own heel to instep ratio?

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
--Maybe I have been blaming my boots when really it is a lack of skill on my part.
-- Three different boot fitters give me 3 different takes on it. My head is spinning.

Welcome to boot fitting 201, when you realize something's wrong while on snow, but people who are supposed to be experts identify different causes and none of them agree. Been there, done that, for years. I used to wonder the same thing as you; is it my gear or my technique? People would tell me to stop blaming my gear; they were wrong. I finally have a pair of boots that fit. But they were right it was also my technique. I have been able to increase my skills much faster now that these boots on my feet actually fit. Numerous bootfitters put me in the wrong boots before I finally got these.

The boot fit is extremely important. It enables your growing skills to deliver orders directly and without confusion to your skis. Boot fit can delay skill acquisition for years because the skis seem to do what they want, as if they have a mind of their own. If that's the case, the feedback from the skis can't be trusted to tell the skier when the movements are effective and when they aren't.

Bottom line: the boots need to fit well in three dimensions. And they shouldn't hurt either.
Try these things to see what's up.

1. Set your sneakers doen beside your boots. Is there a length difference? How much? Mine match. I have a very snug fit, but I had to get down this small because I have hypermobile feet. There should not be much difference in length, because your feet slide forward in regular shoes as they bend, but they don't bend nor do they slide forward in ski boots. The interior of the ski boot should actually be shorter than the interior of your street shoes.
2. With boots on, clicked into bindings, lift one ski into the air so the tip is high and the tail is low; twist it like an airplane propeller, back and forth, then suddenly stop your foot. Does the ski keep twisting after your foot stops? You can check this out one ski at a time on the flats in front of the lodge, or on the chair with feet dangling if no one else is on it. Be very persistent in discovering if the ski keeps twisting after your foot stops. If it does, your boots are too wide.
3. Sideslip straight down a steep incline. Keep most of your balance on the downhill foot. Does that foot slide sideways in the boot? If so, your boots are definitely too wide.
4. Stand on the flats outside the lodge. Can you make your heels lift inside the boots? Buckle up tighter. Try again. Can you do it now? If so, the volume of your boots is too big. The top of the clog (the part where your foot resides) is too tall.
5. Stand in your boots in the lodge. Clunk one boot's heel down on the floor to force your heel waay back into the heel pocket. Now stand up and bend forward at the ankles, as far as you can. Do your toes meet the wall at the front of the boot? If not, your boots are too short.
6. Pull the liners out of the boots. Put your bare feet into the empty shells. Shove your feet forward so that the toes are pressed against the front wall. Look down into the back of the boots. The empty space back there should be about one thick-1st-grader-pencil's width ...or at most a finger's width ... not a thumb's width, and please, please NO definitely not two fingers.
7. When you are in your boots, all nice and buckled up, and you bend forward at the ankles, your shins should contact the boot tongue from the bottom all the way up. If there's air in front of the bottom of your shins when the tops press into the boot cuff, that will lead to shin bang up there (painful bruises). Shin bang will teach you not to press into the boot tongues. Not pressing into the boot tongues keeps you in the back seat. So this needs to be fixed. If everything else about the fit of the boots is fine, the lower shin gap at the tongue can be fixed by stuffing something between the boot tongue and your lower shin. Perfect for this is the "Eliminator Tongue," which you can buy at most ski shops.

Some of these measurements will get sloppier when a new liner packs out. So checking out these measurements when the boots and their liners are new can be deceptive. Assume that what you want, if the liner is new, is a snugger fit than you think is reasonable. SuperSnug.

Your boot fitter should then punch/grind out any shell areas where bones in your feet press too hard against the shell. This shouldn't cost anything if you bought the boot this year from that shop, but you'll have to pay a la carte for the adjustments if you got the boots online then go to a shop for the fitting.
 
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liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Whoops, essential typo in #5 above. It should read:

5. Stand in your boots in the lodge. Clunk one boot's heel down on the floor to force your heel waay back into the heel pocket. Now stand up and bend forward at the ankles, as far as you can. Do your toes meet the wall at the front of the boot? If not, your boots are too long.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@liquidfeet Wow, thanks for the battery of tests! I'm going to try all of these as soon as my feet stop hurting/aren't numb anymore. I've done the sideslip thing, but not #2. For #6, should I buckle the boots up first, or without buckling?

Tried an eliminator tongue last month as another boot fix for the instep slop. It ended up not working too well, and threw me into the back seat. I felt like I ha to stand completely upright at all times while skiing....not ideal.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
For #6 it really doesn't matter. You can leave the cuff buckles unbuckled. Or all of them. You're just checking the length of foot compared to length of plastic shell, tip of your toes to back of your heel. Unbuckled lets you see down the back of the heel better. You can use a flashlight. Some people poke a dowel from the hardware store down behind the heel to check the size of the empty space. Stuffing your hand down in there to see how many fingers thick the space is doesn't work too well.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@liquidfeet Okay, here is the shell check. I also tried to take a picture of the boot next to my shoes and foot, but the shoes are my clunky Oboz (what I wear most often), and the angle is weird. I stuck a sharpie behind my heel for measurement, and the sharpie almost touches both the back of my boot and my heel at one spot, but lower down on my heel there seems to be a ton of space. I would guess that that is okay due to needing a heel pocket. I *could* squeeze two of my fingers behind my foot and the shell, but I also have really skinny fingers, so not sure if that is a good measurement. Does the space in the back look like a lot?20180218_205731.jpg

20180218_205900.jpg

These are my Langes, not the new ones I ordered. Just thought I would try it on these to see so I know what to look for when the new ones come.
 

skyy_blue7

Certified Ski Diva
OMG! I feel like I am experiencing the same thing as you are. In addition to feeling like my skiing has totally regressed to a "sloppy intermediate." I had the same exact thought about demo ski bindings yesterday. After demoing all day, when I got back on my Volk Auras with Marker bindings, I felt like my toes were being sucked forward as demonstrated by the soreness of my toes at the end of the day. Can't explain it but wanted to let you know you're not neurotic! :smile:
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@SquidWeaselYay that's a "two-finger fit" for boot length. It's promoted in ski shops for women who want a "comfortable" boot. It doesn't do your progress any good.

How about the other on-snow checks for width and volume?
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
OMG! I feel like I am experiencing the same thing as you are. In addition to feeling like my skiing has totally regressed to a "sloppy intermediate." I had the same exact thought about demo ski bindings yesterday. After demoing all day, when I got back on my Volk Auras with Marker bindings, I felt like my toes were being sucked forward as demonstrated by the soreness of my toes at the end of the day. Can't explain it but wanted to let you know you're not neurotic! :smile:
Ugh, it messes with your head!!! Did you feel more comfortable on the demo bindings, or on your Markers? I actually felt balanced on the Demo Squires, without having to funnel all my mental energy into doing so. Do you find a higher binding stack height makes it easier to balance on the sweet spot?

I've read so many places that getting the lowest stack height in a binding is ideal, because then you are in a better stance to balance because you are not being thrown forward, then you try to overcompensate, then you go backseat. I actually am starting to believe I have the OPPOSITE problem where I go backseat because I don't have enough ramp angle and my boots are too stiff to let me go forward enough to compensate.

Any ideas what is going on with your "regression?" It's good to know I'm not the only one who is experiencing this.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@SquidWeaselYay that's a "two-finger fit" for boot length. It's promoted in ski shops for women who want a "comfortable" boot. It doesn't do your progress any good.

How about the other on-snow checks for width and volume?


Ugh, I specifically asked for a performance fit when I got these boots!!! I'm thinking the fitter may have ignored that request because I also told him I have Raynaud's and I broke (shattered into pieces) a sesamoid in my right foot 2 years ago. Maybe he was being cautious? They said going to a 23.5 would mean problems, and it wouldn't be long enough. I haven't had a chance to do the other tests you posted, still resting my feet. My sesamoiditis is back in my right foot, and my left is still partially numb.

So question: The Mach 1 LV's that I ordered are the same shell size as the Langes above. Should I be looking at a smaller shell size, or would a good custom liner be a good option in my current size?

I know that going to a good bootfitter is the best option, but I've been to the 3 around here that I can get to on a Saturday, and haven't had much luck. One put me in the Lange to begin with, another told me to do my own research, and another recommended the Mach 1 LV's, but he didn't have any in stock. I appreciate all the help you and the other Divas are giving me. I'm DIY bootfitting, I know, but I'm hoping to get a shell size that fits, then go to a really good fitter when we go to vermont to get the details squared away.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There are so many factors affecting performance on snow. Binding placement, binding ramp angle, boot fit, specifics of your footbed, boot cuff's forward lean and flex, boot sole canting, and all the ski's characteristics. Then add skill level. That's too many independent variables to get a precise diagnosis of what's causing a single problem while skiing.

Trial-and-error with a knowledgeable guide to help in the analysis is the best teacher. Unfortunately, trial-and-error expensive, and expert mentors are rare. $$$ and time get used up before one discovers what will solve this or that issue. For a skier who cares, and you do, finding a way to enjoy the journey while messing with all those factors is the key to nurturing your love of skiing.

You won't know if the new boots are right until you've skied them for a while. But you and a decent bootfitter can figure out if they fit the three dimensions of your foot in the shop.

I'm in those boots, with a flex of 110. The shells have been punched and ground in numerous spots. I have an aftermarket liner in them (ZipFits). It took many many visits back to the bootfitter to get those boots dialed in. And surgery from a podiatrist to remove the ingrown toenails caused by the previous boots that did not fit, sold to me by another bootfitter. Those Tecnica LV boots are quite popular right now because I guess they fit the niche of women, me included, who have narrow, low volume feet. There must not be many boots for those skiers. I am very happy with those boots, but it took work and a very good bootfitter to get them to fit my weird feet.

Best of luck on getting this sorted out.
 

mustski

Angel Diva
Ugh, I specifically asked for a performance fit when I got these boots!!! I'm thinking the fitter may have ignored that request because I also told him I have Raynaud's and I broke (shattered into pieces) a sesamoid in my right foot 2 years ago. Maybe he was being cautious? They said going to a 23.5 would mean problems, and it wouldn't be long enough. I haven't had a chance to do the other tests you posted, still resting my feet. My sesamoiditis is back in my right foot, and my left is still partially numb.
I have an active Morton's Neuroma in my right foot and a beginning growth in my left foot. They only act up in ski boots so doctors won't touch them. Three different bootfitters only agreed on one thing - extra room in the toe box was a MUST for keeping my pain level manageable. Room in the toe box isn't a problem as long as the rest of the fit around the foot is good. Footbeds keep me from sliding forward.

I know you mentioned shims under your footbed in another post. Those caused me to slide forward - up and out of the heel pocket - and caused loss of circulation from pressure on the artery in my foot. Intense pain and numbness was the result. Once I ripped those out, everything was much better.
 

2ski2moro

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Interestingly, I asked about the flex. I asked if overbuckling can make your boots harder to flex, and they said it can't.
Yes it can! This season, when it was so brutally cold, my boots were very hard to flex and I was in the back seat. Loosening the ankle buckles a bit was the key to being able to flex my boot. (Lange RS 110 SC)


Room in the toe box isn't a problem as long as the rest of the fit around the foot is good. Footbeds keep me from sliding forward..

I also like my boots just a bit longer than others. Always have. I have a good fit everywhere else, so it isn't a problem.

Finally, Hotronics are amazing for keeping my feet warm. And when I combine them with Boot Gloves on the coldest days, you would not believe how great it is.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The toe box, which can be stupidly narrow and pointy (why do they do that?), can be stretched by a bootfitter to create more width so the toes will be happy. It can even be made taller, if the bootfitter has the machinery to do this. The bootfitter warms the plastic, shoves a device down into the warm boot that can enlarge the warm malleable plastic, and turns a crank manually to stretch the plastic outward or upward. When the plastic cools, the device is removed. The plastic will be wider and/or taller for your poor toes. Some bootfitters have purchased the machinery that does this; others don't own it.

The point? Get a boot that fits very snugly, then have a GOOD bootfitter "punch" the toe box.

If your ankle bones don't fit into the ankle pockets of the shell, the bootfitter can grind out some plastic where your ankle bones protrude. Get a boot that fits very snugly, then have the bootfitter grind the ankle pockets to fit.

That's why boots are so expensive; you are paying up front for the custom shaping of the boot. Most people don't know bootfitters do this, and don't ask for it. The bootfitters aren't going to suggest it if the skier doesn't ask. If a skier comes back and reveals that they are dissatisfied with the boot's performance, that's when the bootfitter most likely will talk about doing this already paid for custom work.

Most recreational skiers buying boots just want them to not hurt and think that this identifies a good fit. They get boots that feel "good" in the shop, but that's because out of the box they are too big. Then their skiing suffers and they just don't know it's because the boots allow the skis to wobble. I've been there. So. Many. Boots.
 
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2ski2moro

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
OTOH, I have had the toe box "raised/made taller" by the boot fitter and the toe box area of the liner stretched. I know how to flex to secure my heel in the pocket. My forefoot is secure. My heel is locked down. Nothing is sliding around, no blisters, no hot spots. My boots fit me like a strong handshake. I simply cannot stand to have my toes touching the end of the boot. (I also hate when something is touching the back of my ear, which drives my optometrist crazy.) Do I need a therapist for this? :becky:
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
15191813824211996204527.jpg 1519181459441226076540.jpg

First pic is the new Tecnica Mach 1 lv 85 (size 23.5) that just came in the mail today. Second is the Lange rx lv 110 (size 24.5).

The tecnica actually fits just fine so far, toes pull back when i flex, no hot spots after having them on for 30 minutes. I can't believe a full size down works. Wondering if I should try even smaller....

I still have instep slop in the tecnica, but I feel far more balanced in these in my normal tests (jump up-and-down, go through various stages of extension the best I I can standing on a rug). I can actually flex at my ankles now without flying down a steep. I do wonder if the flex is going to be too soft. I can actually flex these to get my knee just a hair beyond my toes, but it is also 75 degrees today. And if i spring for a custom liner, I know it will probably add some stiffness.

Anyway, I think the fit is better except for the instep still has slop. :/ I really doubt at this point I'm going to find a boot where the instep is low enough to fit me there right out of the box. These are significantly lower in the instep than the lange, but still not great.
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Try the Mach 1 LV 22.5 and in a 95 AT LEAST. I measure 24 and 24.5 and I'm in the 22.5 from last year 105 flex. I love it. Yes I went to the boot fitter 4 times to work on ankle (skinny) and one 6th toe issue. Never had to blow out toe in front. The boots from last year are a bit different in that they don't have the expand a cuff (maybe lower volume and less weight). I think based on what I remember reading about your skiing, the 95 flex would be better and may have a better liner.
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The Heads and the Atomic may also be good -- DD has Atomic Hawk Ultra - it bites my instep which may be good for you.
And BTW if you can get a pair of the Atomic Hawk Ultra XTD then you are set for both ALPINE And BC bindings. Make sure you get the 95 at a minimum as the XTD has softer plastic.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Try the Mach 1 LV 22.5 and in a 95 AT LEAST. I measure 24 and 24.5 and I'm in the 22.5 from last year 105 flex. I love it. Yes I went to the boot fitter 4 times to work on ankle (skinny) and one 6th toe issue. Never had to blow out toe in front. The boots from last year are a bit different in that they don't have the expand a cuff (maybe lower volume and less weight). I think based on what I remember reading about your skiing, the 95 flex would be better and may have a better liner.

Wow, i never would have thought to even try that low of a size. I'm an aggressive skier, but I am petite-ish. 5'1" and 125lbs. The last Tecnica boot I had seemed WAY stiffer than the claimed 90 flex (Inferno Flings), and I had to ski with the bolt out. Hence the choice of the 85 flex for this one. I stuck the Mach 1 85's in the freezer for half an hour then tried them on, and they stiffened up a good bit. But due to the cuff being lower than the Langes, they didn't seem to throw me into the back seat when I tried to flex them (unlike the Langes). Are your stats similar to mine? I'm afraid I'll be too small to flex something very stiff, even at speed.
 

mustski

Angel Diva
Wow, i never would have thought to even try that low of a size. I'm an aggressive skier, but I am petite-ish. 5'1" and 125lbs. The last Tecnica boot I had seemed WAY stiffer than the claimed 90 flex (Inferno Flings) ... I'm afraid I'll be too small to flex something very stiff, even at speed.

The flex number varies brand to beand so that makes it confusing. As an aggressive skier, with your stats, you should be able to fkex anything 90 to 110 without too much problem. Fitters can soften a boot if it is too stiff. I am 5’2”, 135 lbs, and a nearly 60 year old finesse skier with limited dorsiflexion... and I can flex anything in the 100 range. Is it possible you have dorsiflexion issues? That would also explain why you prefer binding with a slight delta angle. Maybe give heel lifts a whirl.
 

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