Diversity and Skiing

[VickiK]

I don't mean being confrontational or shaming, just more clear. In the example you quoted, I think a flat statement "We don't use "gay" like that here" would be more clear. Maybe it's just a matter of context. But I can see your point, that making the person think it through for themselves might be more effective.

Taking a close look at the post, this is clear to me:
Me: “You are standing in that person’s personal space. We don’t do that here.”
Them: “But I was trying to be nice.”
Me: “Awesome, but we don’t stand so close to people here.”

And this is less clear:
Them: Tells an off-color joke.
Me: “We don’t do that here.” **I think it'd be clearer to say: "Yeah, we don't use use off-color humor here."
Them: “But I was trying to be funny.”
Me (shrugging): “That isn’t relevant. We don’t do that here.”

 

[bounceswoosh]

I don't mean being confrontational or shaming, just more clear. In the example you quoted, I think a flat statement "We don't use "gay" like that here" would be more clear. Maybe it's just a matter of context. But I can see your point, that making the person think it through for themselves might be more effective.

Taking a close look at the post, this is clear to me:
Me: “You are standing in that person’s personal space. We don’t do that here.”
Them: “But I was trying to be nice.”
Me: “Awesome, but we don’t stand so close to people here.”

And this is less clear:
Them: Tells an off-color joke.
Me: “We don’t do that here.” **I think it'd be clearer to say: "Yeah, we don't use use off-color humor here."
Them: “But I was trying to be funny.”
Me (shrugging): “That isn’t relevant. We don’t do that here.”

Oh, yeah! For sure. I had interpreted your comment differently (obviously).

I do wonder if it risks wandering into explanation territory that could open things up for debate. But obviously "that" means *something*, and it seems like you ought to be able to articulate it. In the specific original example - "Oh, we don't use the word 'gay' to describe things here." Seems awkward, though (you have to distinguish between calling people gay vs things gay, and when it's okay to describe people as gay ...)

 

[Obrules15]

Oh, yeah! For sure. I had interpreted your comment differently (obviously).

I do wonder if it risks wandering into explanation territory that could open things up for debate. But obviously "that" means *something*, and it seems like you ought to be able to articulate it. In the specific original example - "Oh, we don't use the word 'gay' to describe things here." Seems awkward, though (you have to distinguish between calling people gay vs things gay, and when it's okay to describe people as gay ...)

I actually prefer a general "we don't do that here", because nine times out of ten I've found that people who use personal characteristics as a pejorative or who denigrate people based on sexual orientation also denigrate or demean others in general and use whatever characteristics they can to do so. Whether it's for perceived unattractiveness, an awkward gait, a disability, race, or sexual orientation, I think it really says the same thing about the character of the person speaking and needs to be handled from that perspective.

I remember being asked many years ago if I thought our boss was a racist, and my answer was "no, he's just a raging prick". This was someone who was put in anger management classes, who'd popped one of my colleagues upside the head, who demeaned and denigrated everyone (the worst being one of the smartest white males of the group, but who tended to draw ire for being a thinker).

So I'm less concerned about the fact that that person specifically used "gay" as a pejorative and more concerned that they learn not to denigrate people in general and a "we don't do that here" does a better job of addressing that.

 

[newboots]

I also like "we don't do that here." It avoids some possible arguments (such as the relative merits of LGBTQ people, whether or not the use of one term or another is really pejorative/racist/etc.) and has a mild, this-conversation-ends-here way about it.

I wish someone might have been able to do that for the author of the Outside article I referred to above -
https://www.outsideonline.com/2242361/confronting-racism-my-summer-job

Unfortunately, the message in that article seemed to be, they DO do that there. Painful, as I keep saying.

 

[newboots]

Helpful link for white people (and probably everybody) in talking about racism

I watched @RachelV's video of JaySmooth above, and it linked to an excerpt from a TED talk he did with some other helpful comments about "that thing you did could seem racist" conversations. If we could all take a breath and follow this advice, we might be able to get past this place where so many people get stuck.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Helpful link for white people (and probably everybody) in talking about racism

I watched @RachelV's video of JaySmooth above, and it linked to an excerpt from a TED talk he did with some other helpful comments about "that thing you did could seem racist" conversations. If we could all take a breath and follow this advice, we might be able to get past this place where so many people get stuck.

Oooh, I love this! When I try to talk to some people about this subject and say that I know I have prejudices - people look at me like I've just admitted this horrific thing. When what I mean is that through years of self-discovery I've become conscious of the millisecond flicker when I have an instantaneous response to a person I don't know (whether due to race or a host of other factors). This is progress. I assert that all of us have prejudices, and becoming aware of them is a big step toward treating people better.

There's a podcast I listen to, Nancy, and they had an interview with the southern grandmother of a trans person. She's 90-something. The grandmother fought hard for civil rights, including the rights of black and white people to marry, and she supports gay marriage. But she admitted that she still has a gut feeling when she sees mixed-race couples. And she's still uncomfortable around gay men. She knows it's wrong, and it's a part of her she wishes she didn't have, but it's there. The same for her feelings about her trans grandchild. So much courage to say it out loud. Is she a racist? Is the label "racist" meaningful in her scenario? Or is she just more honest than others about the societal values she internalized when she was a tiny child?

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/527636117/nancy

It's episode 30 - This Awful Side of Me. I really think it's worth listening to. Half an hour. She also talks about women's opportunities (lack thereof) in the 40s and 50s.

 

[newboots]

Well, you are so right. I think we are all (probably all) racist. Racism (and sexism, heterosexism, whatever the right word is for binary-gender-ism, etc.) permeates the air we breathe, is all over the media, and is reinforced in so many ways, large and small.

There are those moments you mention, when you catch yourself having that unwanted reaction, and moments of great cluelessness. We all have them. If we are so likely to cringe in shame if someone helps us notice one of these moments, how will we ever begin to discuss racism? His point - it's not that you're bad, it's that the thing you said might be perceived as racist - we need to own that for ourselves, too. We can't be so afraid to make a mistake that we stop participating in the conversation.

 

[VickiK]

This reminds me of what came up in another thread, the fear or suspicion of the "other" by the group. The 'if you're not with me, you're against me' type of thinking, extended into if you're not like me, if you don't look like me, if you don't act like me, if you don't follow the same rules...

 

[marzNC]

Occurred to me that the use of the word "racist" has changed in recent years. The definition in the Mirriam-Webster online makes sense to me. The Urban Dictionary confirmed my thinking that the word is being used more often now as a short hand for someone who is prejudiced against another person or group for whatever reason (only included the first couple of examples).

 

[Pequenita]

I don't think the definition has actually changed, but rather, more people are using the word now and so it's taken on the Urban Dictionary meaning when people really mean bias. The über academic definition of the word is one that many people bristle at.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Um. When I see a quote that complains that "mentioning race in any way" is now viewed as racist, my bull...crap detectors go up.

 

[ski diva]

There's an interesting article on Powder.com on the National Brotherhood of Skiers and how its number are shrinking.

 

[Obrules15]

Oooh, I love this! When I try to talk to some people about this subject and say that I know I have prejudices - people look at me like I've just admitted this horrific thing. When what I mean is that through years of self-discovery I've become conscious of the millisecond flicker when I have an instantaneous response to a person I don't know (whether due to race or a host of other factors). This is progress. I assert that all of us have prejudices, and becoming aware of them is a big step toward treating people better.

There's a podcast I listen to, Nancy, and they had an interview with the southern grandmother of a trans person. She's 90-something. The grandmother fought hard for civil rights, including the rights of black and white people to marry, and she supports gay marriage. But she admitted that she still has a gut feeling when she sees mixed-race couples. And she's still uncomfortable around gay men. She knows it's wrong, and it's a part of her she wishes she didn't have, but it's there. The same for her feelings about her trans grandchild. So much courage to say it out loud. Is she a racist? Is the label "racist" meaningful in her scenario? Or is she just more honest than others about the societal values she internalized when she was a tiny child?

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/527636117/nancy

It's episode 30 - This Awful Side of Me. I really think it's worth listening to. Half an hour. She also talks about women's opportunities (lack thereof) in the 40s and 50s.

Well, you are so right. I think we are all (probably all) racist. Racism (and sexism, heterosexism, whatever the right word is for binary-gender-ism, etc.) permeates the air we breathe, is all over the media, and is reinforced in so many ways, large and small.

There are those moments you mention, when you catch yourself having that unwanted reaction, and moments of great cluelessness. We all have them. If we are so likely to cringe in shame if someone helps us notice one of these moments, how will we ever begin to discuss racism? His point - it's not that you're bad, it's that the thing you said might be perceived as racist - we need to own that for ourselves, too. We can't be so afraid to make a mistake that we stop participating in the conversation.

This is so true about all of us and we do us all a disservice by not being able to talk about it for fear of (being judged, misjudged, hurting someone, etc.). There are two things about the muzzling on this topic that really frost me.

The first is that for the most part it is propagated by a few true believers, who really think that suppression is the best way to handle bias. The rest of the majority (IMHO) don't know or have an answer so they go along with it but don't really believe. The best example is the term African-American (which I abhor). 95% of black folk refer to themselves as black within the community, and very rarely use the term AA unless it's within a more formal setting. It's not considered an insult, we're not really bothered by it but in 1988 Jesse Jackson made this speech and all the academics piled on and started the PC movement and told us we were supposed to be. Um, no, mostly we find it irritating except for a few crusaders...............

We can't discuss things anymore which means there's no growth or change (In my humble opinion). People are extraordinarily complicated creatures and single labels of racist/sexist/homophobic etc. don't adequately convey the entirety of reality.

I'm pretty good about this on a mid level but I had to check myself when I read an article about a musician who made it part of his life's work to meet leaders of the KKK and other hate groups and find out how they could hate him without meeting him. The story fast forwards many years and he ends up befriending some of these people (some of whom renounce their old life some not) and the last paragraph of the article is about how one of his friends (who was still part of the KKK) dies and dead man's chapter invites the guy to be part of the funeral service (not just invited, but part of) because they knew how close of friends those two guys were.

When you read the article you realize all that was accomplished by talking, not freaking out, not letting fear overwhelm you (which is responsible for much of the problem), just people being open, honest, non-judgemental and talking.

The second thing is that by suppressing and making it an either or (racist or not, period!) racial or ethnic minorities don't learn to recognize thei biases against themselves because they don't fit the big picture binary. But they do exist, always have, and can have profound effects.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I'm pretty good about this on a mid level but I had to check myself when I read an article about a musician who made it part of his life's work to meet leaders of the KKK and other hate groups and find out how they could hate him without meeting him. The story fast forwards many years and he ends up befriending some of these people (some of whom renounce their old life some not) and the last paragraph of the article is about how one of his friends (who was still part of the KKK) dies and dead man's chapter invites the guy to be part of the funeral service (not just invited, but part of) because they knew how close of friends those two guys were.

When you read the article you realize all that was accomplished by talking, not freaking out, not letting fear overwhelm you (which is responsible for much of the problem), just people being open, honest, non-judgemental and talking.

I've heard that story a few times, and it's really amazing. So much bravery on the part of the musician, putting himself out there.

I should maybe mention that I catch myself judging EVERYONE, positively or negatively, without meeting them. I have preconceived notions about black people, hispanic people, rich people, poor people, fat people, skinny people, people with tattoos I like, people with tattoos I don't like, people with dogs, people who dress this way or that, people with certain jobs ..... OMG so much judging. Becoming aware of it on a conscious level has been ... enlightening, if not exactly fun. Maybe I'm the only person who has this, but I tend to suspect almost everyone does this, and many just haven't learned to hear their own internal voice.

 

[Obrules15]

I've heard that story a few times, and it's really amazing. So much bravery on the part of the musician, putting himself out there.

I should maybe mention that I catch myself judging EVERYONE, positively or negatively, without meeting them. I have preconceived notions about black people, hispanic people, rich people, poor people, fat people, skinny people, people with tattoos I like, people with tattoos I don't like, people with dogs, people who dress this way or that, people with certain jobs ..... OMG so much judging. Becoming aware of it on a conscious level has been ... enlightening, if not exactly fun. Maybe I'm the only person who has this, but I tend to suspect almost everyone does this, and many just haven't learned to hear their own internal voice.

And that's it exactly. One of the ways our brain helps us out is by providing short cuts to learning. If every time you heard the underbrush rustle in just that certain way you had to wait to see the tiger before you ran, that's a problem. So those impulses are rooted in the way the brain stores and processes information.

In fact Developmental Coordination Disorder is where children can't use movement maps created doing other physical things to help them learn to do new physical things. For instance (very simplified) not being able to apply skills learned in climbing steps to climbing ladders. That basic tendency to take things we already know and apply them to new people and situations is a learning strategy that serves us well.

So to me if I question my thoughts, and try to recognize where they come from and acknowledge them, it's much better than pretending they don't exist. It makes my goal to treat every person with dignity and respect because that's what they deserve as fellow humans, as opposed to being without bias, because I don't think that's possible.

The standard one that is so hurtful to so many upstanding black men is that when walking down the street, women walking towards them grab their purses and crossing the street. For me, if I flash in that situation (really any situation where I'm alone with anyone I don't know) I don't ignore it, I start running my mental heuristics/decision tree. I look at age, grooming, dress, style of walk, cleanliness, affect, energy, surroundings, things in the environment that might mean I'm safe, things in the environment that might make me unsafe (if there is a crack house next door, I don't care if I hurt your feelings, not safe) and I always, always look at the person, acknowledge them and their personhood, and nod my head or speak, regardless. Because if for no other reason than it is much easier to hurt someone who you don't see as a person, or who you are mad at because you don't feel like they see you as a person.

P.S. That also works on catcallers and oglers. One of these days (in a physically safe setting) stop and look at (and see) these men and ask them if they would treat their sister/daughter or mother that way. You'd be surprised at the response. And it might have a strong enough influence to stop them from doing it to anyone else.

 

[VickiK]

Re: beggars, this

So to me if I question my thoughts, and try to recognize where they come from and acknowledge them, it's much better than pretending they don't exist. It makes my goal to treat every person with dignity and respect because that's what they deserve as fellow humans, as opposed to being without bias, because I don't think that's possible.

and this

I always, always look at the person, acknowledge them and their personhood, and nod my head or speak, regardless.

For it's better to say 'no' than to ignore their humanity or existense.

 

[Obrules15]

Re: beggars, this and this
For it's better to say 'no' than to ignore their humanity or existense.

When I avoid looking at a beggar it's because I feel guilty about what I'm choosing to do, therefore it's my problem to be worked through. If I don't think it's a good idea to give money then I need to own it an feel OK, and therefore can still look and apologize for not having anything available to give.

If I feel obligated to do something, what can I do that I think is appropriate? When my commute took me past beggars on a regular basis I kept cheap cheese crackers in the car. Sometimes they would take them, sometimes not, but by doing that I could live with myself. These days I only occasionally run into beggars so I no longer have anything to give so I feel bad, which makes me not want to meet their eyes/look at them, but that's my problem.

 

[santacruz skier]

I was walking in the downtown area after dinner one night holding my leftovers. I was asked by a homeless person with a sign if he could have my leftovers because he was hungry. I said of course and handed them over.

 

[newboots]

I keep cheese crackers in the car in the summer to give to panhandlers, and HotHands in the winter. Nobody ever turns down the HotHands; I think many are happier with these than money. I can't give money - I've seen too many of these folks in court, strung out/in withdrawal/in big trouble - many people (once in court) admit openly that they use the money to buy alcohol or drugs.

 

[VickiK]

It is difficult. There's a lot of homeless people in L.A. Some hang out by freeway exits or intersections with signs. I've been harassed twice by the same dude--he's quite aggressive. Jerk.