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Technique question for firm groomers

snow addict

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I'm not arguing. Clarifying.
It is just that your reference to friction is not very accurate. And knife, steak and spoon example is wrong in the context.

You can apply sufficient pressure on your edges and you will stop spite their small surface, and you can slide very far and very fast bases, so surface has no role in the amount of generated friction.
 
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bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@Jilly @Skisailor - You guys said that my tracks were evidence of blended turns. I realize that I inferred what that means, but I'm not actually sure. Does a "blended" turn mean there are some elements of carving and some elements of slipping/smearing? And if so, does that mean I am doing *some* of the things necessary for carving? I am wondering if it's just a matter of trust.

I was chatting with someone today and remembered one time I definitely did carve, one turn, but it was an important one. We were skiing an "in between" area with breakable crust, and when I did my usual thing, I would end up shooting sideways across the hill with little control. In fact, I nearly hit a boulder. So my instructor told me I had to carve. Just trust the turn, don't rush it, allow it to develop. And I did, and it terrified me to just let it happen without pushing anything, but after that turn, which felt very long indeed, I looked up - and there was a clearly delineated line, just like someone had taken a compass to the snow.

I would not have been able to trust the arc on a steeper slope, and it's not like breakable crust develops on mellow runs where you can easily practice it. So that was a rare opportunity. Once I'm comfortable using my knee in trickier terrain, I hope I'll be able to work on it some more. Er. I just realized this is an incredibly strong argument for practicing when it's *not* that kind of clutch situation. :doh:
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I realize I am coming late to this thread and have not read everything so ignore if I am off base.

Carving can be practiced on mellow terrain because you do gain speed.

A great way to practice is doing uphill arcs. Stand on the side of the hill, facing across. Point your skis downhill slightly and as you start, tip both feet uphill and ride the edges. You can stop and look at your tracks to see if there is a clean line or smeary line. If smeary line, you may not have tipped enough or added leg rotation.

This is actually a task on the Level 1 exam.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I realize I am coming late to this thread and have not read everything so ignore if I am off base.

Carving can be practiced on mellow terrain because you do gain speed.

A great way to practice is doing uphill arcs. Stand on the side of the hill, facing across. Point your skis downhill slightly and as you start, tip both feet uphill and ride the edges. You can stop and look at your tracks to see if there is a clean line or smeary line. If smeary line, you may not have tipped enough or added leg rotation.

This is actually a task on the Level 1 exam.

Thanks, Nancy!

This thread actually started with me asking how to ski slowly when I get to scraped blues, because when I tried to ski short radius turns, I would end up skidding out.

Then we kind of got derailed to discussion of carving, maybe because the subject looks like it is probably about carving.

I don't think carving on the firm blues I'm talking about will get me the speed control I want. But carving is also something I could generally be working on this season.

I had thought that I would get bored "just skiing" on groomers and want the drills for variety, but in a number of ways, I had no idea what this season would be like. I haven't been drilling nearly as much as I'd expected. On the other hand, I did find that Pete Schmidt - I'm sure you know him - is a fantastic instructor, and I'm learning a lot in his level 6 class.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
@Jilly @Skisailor - You guys said that my tracks were evidence of blended turns. I realize that I inferred what that means, but I'm not actually sure. Does a "blended" turn mean there are some elements of carving and some elements of slipping/smearing? And if so, does that mean I am doing *some* of the things necessary for carving? I am wondering if it's just a matter of trust.

I was chatting with someone today and remembered one time I definitely did carve, one turn, but it was an important one. We were skiing an "in between" area with breakable crust, and when I did my usual thing, I would end up shooting sideways across the hill with little control. In fact, I nearly hit a boulder. So my instructor told me I had to carve. Just trust the turn, don't rush it, allow it to develop. And I did, and it terrified me to just let it happen without pushing anything, but after that turn, which felt very long indeed, I looked up - and there was a clearly delineated line, just like someone had taken a compass to the snow.

I would not have been able to trust the arc on a steeper slope, and it's not like breakable crust develops on mellow runs where you can easily practice it. So that was a rare opportunity. Once I'm comfortable using my knee in trickier terrain, I hope I'll be able to work on it some more. Er. I just realized this is an incredibly strong argument for practicing when it's *not* that kind of clutch situation. :doh:

What Skier31 said!

Re the "blended" turns: the blend refers to a combination of edging and rotating (pivoting) the ski. Smeary turns, like the ones you posted the picture of, have a higher proportion of rotation in the blend relative to carved turns which are pure edging.

In your scary turns where you shot across the hill - that's likely a result of you leaning into the hill (inside the turn), which puts the skis more on edge and will send you rocketing out of the turns. The leaning uphill thing is something you've said that you tend to do.

Working on carving is best done on smooth green or easy blue terrain.
Carving is definitely not helpful for speed control. For that we need a flatter ski.
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Interestingly, playing with the spectrum of carving, can actually help in the bumps. The more ability you have to tip/untip, will allow you to access the exact amount of edge you need in any given situation.

My bump skiing improved tremendously after going to a race clinic. Very surprising to me.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Interestingly, playing with the spectrum of carving, can actually help in the bumps. The more ability you have to tip/untip, will allow you to access the exact amount of edge you need in any given situation.

My bump skiing improved tremendously after going to a race clinic. Very surprising to me.

That's very cool!

Even though I usually feel like I'm good at flattening while skiing, I know I have room to grow (ie, drills tell a different story). Two data points to support that:

My edge can get "caught" with pivot slips.

I get "caught" the same way trying to do 360s on the snow. During a boot-unbuckled lesson, Matt encouraged us to try those 360s. Amazingly, they were easy. This implies to me that I'm not flattening my ski enough in this move, and when I don't have as much fine control, the skis are able to flatten themselves.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Our lessons have been all about learning to flatten skis to prepare for bumps, so I didn't want to side track that ... but I made it to the end of the lesson today, and it was just me and one other student, and the instructor, and we were going to be skiing down a green. So I asked him about railroad tracks. Upshot: we worked on railroad tracks the whole way down the green - at least, when people weren't in the way.

It's kind of hilarious that since I posted this thread, there have been zero opportunities to ski on truly firm groomers. Too much snow!
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I'm pretty sure that on a green I can successfully create railroad tracks (assuming I don't have to bail!), but hard to tell at the end of the day when it's all cut up. I look forward to looking back and seeing railroad tracks =)

And I now fully understand that railroad tracks - really means railroad tracks!

Funny/cute story. When we were down to me and one other student, at the top of this green, and I asked Pete about railroad tracks. The other student, very fun lady, looked slightly alarmed. "This has to do with trees, doesn't it?" She knows that I'm a tree hound, and I'd been ducking into trees for a turn or two all day. Pete and I reassured her it was as far from tree skiing as you can possibly get. After playing with the concept, she said she'd work on it when freeskiing, so I'm glad she got some benefit out of my question, too.
 

Fluffy Kitty

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Therefore...friction is independent of surface area

Actually, on skis, friction is lower with greater surface area... This seemingly physics-defying fact is due to the relative size of surface features (mounds of snow) vs. the skis. Here is an extreme case illustration.

Ski and Friction 1.png

Longer skis ride over the ridges. Shorter skis bump up and down more. Longer skis are faster.

For the same reason, stiffer skis are faster, as they don't sink into the valleys as much.

Ski and Friction 2.png

Surface texture does affect the friction force, but surface area is irrelevant. It's not me, it's the law of physics.

In other words, when surface texture becomes very large relative to the surface area, surface area does matter. A simple example of this is trying to move a table with feet down vs. top down; on smooth glass, it doesn't matter, but on carpet, it matters a lot. Also, moving a table with wobbly legs vs. stiff legs; even on smooth glass, stiff legs will move more smoothly.

Similarly (and contradictorily), longer edges do have a better hold because you have a more consistent hold, compared to a bumpy, rattly hold with shorter edges.
 

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